Why Jazz Musicians Love Hip Hop (ft. Switched On Pop)
S13 #8

Why Jazz Musicians Love Hip Hop (ft. Switched On Pop)

I'm Adam Maness and I'm Peter
Martin, and you're listening to

the You'll Hear It podcast.
Music Explored.

Explored brought to you today by
Open Studio.

Go to openstudiojazz.com for
All your jazz lesson needs.

Peter.
Yes, special day today.

Very special.
Avec Guests.

Con guests.
With the guests and actually

these are are these are our
first returning guests.

I think they.
Might be, does it count

returning if it's been 7 years
between?

Absolutely, yeah.
Today on the show, we have Nate

Sloan and Charlie Harding from
the incredible Switched on Pop

podcast.
Nate, Charlie, welcome.

Welcome.
Thank you guys.

It's great to be here.
I'm honored. 7 years we're back,

we're older, we're wiser.
Look.

At us, look at how far.
We've come down with you all.

Yeah, we.
Actually, I think they might be

the second returning guest.
The the only other person we've

had on twice is actually Ron
Carter, who we're going to talk

about in a minute.
Connection there.

Wow, that's right, Solid.
Company.

Nate, Charlie and Ron we call
it.

But when we were talking to you
guys about what we wanted to

talk about on the show, we
started talking about jazz

musicians and being.
Well, let's be honest, we

started talking about jazz
because we got whenever we're

talking to Nate and Charlie, we
start getting nervous.

We don't want to talk about
their bread.

Like we revert back, let's talk
about jazz.

Let's talk about jazz.
Like, come on, minor, major

stuff, you know, like we got to
go back to our wheelhouse real

quick because these are two of
the most knowledgeable, it's

true, interesting and nuanced
commentators on music.

So it's super exciting.
But we we did want to talk about

something that that both of us
might have some purchase in.

And so we started talking about
maybe when jazz musicians come

into big recording sessions, big
albums, and really leave their

mark.
A lot of what we're going to be

talking about today is hip hop,
but we're going to go a little

bit beyond that into some other
areas.

But yeah, I don't know, guys.
Maybe talk about your

relationship to jazz musicians
in the pop music that you love.

Yeah, well, I, I think this is
such a cool topic because it

personally, it bridges my 2
interests.

I grew up listening to and
playing jazz.

And then ten years ago, Charlie
and I started this podcast about

pop music.
At the time, we were not

familiar with pop music at all.
And 10 years later, I've become,

we both become sort of
recalcitrant experts in the, in

the field of Top 40 pop.
And this idea of these two

worlds, which you think of as
being so separate in so many

ways, right.
Jazz and pop, it's like they

they, they, I think are
perceived as not having any

overlap.
But, but actually, when you

think about albums from Van
Morrison to Joni Mitchell to

Steely Dan to, to A Tribe Called
Quest to Kendrick Lamar to even

Miley Cyrus's most recent
release, it's like all of these

big pop albums have been shaped
by the, the sound and, and, and,

and even more significant,
significantly like the

philosophy of, of jazz.
So I'm I'm excited to to dig

into this.
Yeah.

I feel like I'm here to Why am I
here?

I I Candy.
Thank you.

Why are we all here?
I I candy primarily.

That's I honestly probably could
answer that question better than

what I'm doing on a jazz podcast
because I'm a pretty lapsed jazz

musician.
As in, I've played guitar for

the longest time and I did my
high school cool jazz ensembles.

And I remember getting, I
remember going to my first

college jazz ensemble and
getting a side eye from the

drummer who just like you don't
belong here.

The last time I saw that guy,
which was like 20 years later,

he gave me a side eye again.
And you know who it is, but I'm

not going to name names.
Actually, I really like this

person.
It was.

So yeah, I think I'm here to be
the the person that needs to be

educated the most on my jazz
harmony and to be the pop guy.

Yeah, you know what?
If there's one thing that the

jazz musicians are truly
virtuosic, virtuosic at, Yeah,

it's gatekeeping.
Right, it's gatekeeping.

And then once we do get an
opportunity to get into the pop

role, overplaying and over
overplaying our hand and

overplaying the notes.
Well, as a guitarist, I'm really

good at overplaying.
So I can realize you that I

mean.
Not to get too professorial off

the bat, but there, there's,
there's that inflection point

where, where it right, right
around the end of World War 2,

where prior to that, jazz and
popular music were synonymous.

They were inseparable.
Jazz was in in many ways, the

first popular music, the first
mass media.

And then, and then there's the
shift with, with the rise of

bebop and this desire to create
this art discourse and, and to

create something that's like
separate from the commercialism

of the, of, of the pop music
world And that and that sort of

splinters those two.
But but then there are all these

moments when they do come back
together and they, they connect

through these, you know,
incredible musicians and these

incredible collaborations.
Yeah.

Well, one of the, I think
brightest moments, especially in

my lifetime was for that
collaboration was the early 90s

and specifically with with Tribe
Called Quest, we were talking

about how influential Q-tip from
Tribe Called Quest has been on

the music of our life.
I mean, it goes way beyond just

Tribe.
It's it, it reaches into, well

into our lives now with his
production.

But this is very special for us
because like we mentioned, we've

had Ron Carter on the show
before.

Ron Carter, been under a rock as
a jazz fan, is on the Mount

Rushmore of jazz bassist.
He's there.

Might be.
Three Ron Carter's on Mount

Rushmore.
And then Paul?

Chambers and Paul Chambers.
No, but he is truly one of the

most iconic.
He's he's, I think he's in the

Guinness Book of World Record
for being the most recorded

musician in history.
He's on a lot more recordings

than just straight ahead jazz
recordings.

And what makes I think Tribe and
specifically Q-tip as a producer

so special is their willingness
to incorporate all kinds of

musicians into what they're
doing and take risks.

And so we're going to start the
show here with the track "Versus

From the Abstract" from Tribe,
one of their, I think, 2

incredible early 90s
masterpieces, The Low End theory,

this features Ron Carter.
And this isn't a sample.

This is they had the maestro
himself come in and record it

and we'll hear a little bit of
that.

I had a dream about my man last
night and my man came by the the

studio and his name is Busta
Rhymes in effect.

Ali Shaheed is in effect. Phife Dawg
is in effect.

Check it out and give me my
spec.

I'm moving.
Yes, I'm moving because my mouth

is on the motor to the morning
to avoid the funky odor.

Can't help being a funky I'm the
funky app.

They brought him in on F# sense,
but I played the undercover.

Yeah, he's going for.
Some booty.

Now I'm getting funky and my
rapping.

That's my duty.
So again.

That's not a sample.
I mean, there's samples in

there.
The drums are a sample, the

guitar is a sample, but the bass
is Ron Carter playing.

And you can hear, if you isolate
some of this, you can hear how

organically he's playing.
Here we go.

Going down to that low E yeah,
they actually anti samples him.

They're they're they're ranking
up what he played, which is A

Q-Tip thing too, so.
And he's doing all of those Ron

Carter isms, too.
What what we've talked about

timeless times here with with
the man himself about, you know,

his his signature styles.
And then, you know, my favorite

part actually, of this whole
thing is that he gets famously a

shout out at the end.
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And this one goes out to my man.

Thanks a lot for Ron Carter on
the bass.

Yes, for me.
And Ron Carter is on the base.

Check it.
Out many answers.

Yeah, so.
Good.

He gets called out on on a a
song that half of the lyrics are

call outs to just everybody
who's in the it's like 5 Diddle

Bob Power, the mixing engineer.
You know, he's just like calling

everybody out.
But then Ron gets his own little

section at the end.
It's great.

It makes you wonder about how
this was even put together.

I mean, oftentimes hip hop
tracks are going to be less live

in the room, but there was this
conversation that just happened.

I mean, obviously those drums
are sampled, so.

Yeah.
Are they like playing an MPC in

the room and Ron's playing and
they're also doing the rap at

this?
I think.

It's a beautiful little
compositional moment or

improvisational moment that
feels live whether it is or not.

Yeah, You know, I actually asked
Ron Carter about this because

I've always loved this track so
much.

And he all respect to to Sir Ron
Carter, proud for Ron Carter,

but he kind of gave me two
conflicting versions of that.

Yeah, we played together and
yeah.

No, no, no.
I just came in and they laid

everything down already so I
couldn't.

Even remember he's been on too
many things.

That's what I'm saying for
lunch, yeah.

Yeah.
But I mean, it's, it's very much

like like I always thought of
this like as something that they

were sampling.
It wasn't till we really broke

this down and I'm still not even
sure.

But it sounds like he's playing
throughout the thing, which is

I'm sure what they did, they
kind of played in the beat and

then they were like, these are,
you know, it's F#, my F#.

Just do your thing over it.
But it almost sounds like they

left it outside of those places
where they where they tapped it

out, of course.
Yeah, 2 quick things about this

111.
It reminds me of another lyric

from Q-tip on a track from The
Low End Theory.

He says you can find the
abstract.

That's him.
That's his, you know, cognomen.

You can find the abstract.
Listening to hip hop, My Pops

used to say it reminded him of
bebop.

And that's a cool line because
it speaks to the the continuum

that these two styles actually
exist on as as different

expressions of of African
American culture at different

points in time.
And, and then Ron Carter makes

me think like if you were in
that Miles quintet, that that

second quintet, it, it primed
you for these kind of

collaborations.
All of those musicians, Tony

Williams, Herbie Hancock, Wayne
Shorter and, and Ron Carter,

they, they, I feel like they
learn from Miles to embrace that

world of pop and, and rock and
eventually hip hop because all

of them went off and, and worked
with with people from that

world.
So.

That's a.
Great.

Maybe there's that like imprint
of, of, of miles, you know,

genre spanning philosophy on
those, on those musicians.

Yeah, and Miles had the what was
it, the Doo wop do do something,

do bop do bop Yeah album, which
is right around this time too,

early 90s and stuff.
Early 90s, yeah, yeah.

That's a great point, Nate.
We've spoken on Herbie endlessly

and and his playfulness and his
willingness to just do anything

with and still remain himself.
But also, you're right, the rest

of that entire band, Wayne is
out there on Asia.

Like just like weather report
with Weather Report with Joni

Mitchell.
Yeah, incredible.

And and the fact that you
mentioned Bebop it, it really

leans right into what we're
going to talk about next with

it, which is a track from.
I was just wanting to throw one

thing out there because what
Nate said about the the lyric,

my dad with bebop, the Q-tips
set on there.

I I think this is a big thing.
We we talk about influence,

especially in hip hop from jazz.
There's a lot of like Jay Dilla,

his I believe it was his father,
maybe his mother to like he grew

up listening to a lot of jazz
And of course, the connection

with Detroit between the jazz
scene, Motown and then hip hop

and beat making.
That's right, was like a

connected line, you know, and
there's there's a lot of these

things, of course, is jazz
music.

I mean, for me, I grew up
listening to jazz.

He's a classical musician, but
he had jazz records records.

But like you see that a lot
common for sure out of Chicago.

He talks about that with I think
his mom.

So like that's, that's an
influence, you know, that's.

That's huge.
A lot of you know hip hop

artists might have some some
some neighborhood or familiar

familial connection to to the
jazz world.

I think FlyLo and I, I
believe his like aunt, great

aunt or something is Alice
Coltrane who was married to John

I.
Didn't even know that that's.

He's got a relationship there.
Yeah.

Incredible.
Well, Peter, you mentioned

Common and we've talked about
before the incredible trumpeter

Roy Hargrove.
We did an episode on D’Angelo's

Voodoo, which Roy is all over
that and actually adds so much

melodic and harmonic content to
that album.

And one of the one of the hip
hop albums that we have queued

up here is Commons Cold Blooded
from his album Like Water for

Chocolate.
Same year as Voodoo released and

you're here four years but.
And Roy again, yeah, all over

this.
Yeah yeah my little daughter

started nursery school brother
calm God make I moved through

silence and violence with
vibrance society times with this

time my this terrible thing
spirit rap pipes like dreams

seems real and then wake up with
no acres out there traveling the

world to see babies jazz paper
streets take back and forth like

Shaker I'm a slave to the
rhythms breaking off I get the

job done.
Some days I want to take off DB

like we ain't got no time for
that.

So to me this is like you talk
about jazz influencing.

I'm so glad you said the word
bebop, Nate, and highlight that

because to me this is all about
like, it's very much like the

James Brown, the parliament
connection in terms of the beat.

Yeah, it's 2:00 and 4:00, but
it's more boom.

It's on the one and one.
Yeah.

And then all this stuff common
and for sure, Roy, obviously

with the but it's all like pick
it, dip baa ba hooba, hoba

dooba, dooba, dooba.
Like all.

It's so connected with the swing
of bebop of, of the lilt to, to,

to the way he's delivering those
lyrics, you know, and then Roy

is doing some, I mean, 'cause
it's like a minor.

It's kind of just, what is it
like 1:00 to 5:00?

But Roy's like he's giving it
that, that jazz hormone, you

know, that minor, minor 11 kind
of sound, throwing that kind of

flavour in.
There voodoo vibes.

Very voodoo.
I mean, yeah, this is.

Right.
I think this is an extension of

those D'Angelo voodoo sessions.
I I don't know where if it was a

predecessor or successor
exactly, but.

But I think there was overlap.
Yeah, those, I think that group

of musicians, Amir Questlove,
Thompson, D'Angelo, Roy

Hargrove, they, they called
themselves the Soulquarians and,

and they, they did a lot of
projects and, and clearly they

had a lot of fun working
together.

And I, I, I agree this I haven't
heard this song since it came

out.
And it, it's, it sounds really

good.
Yeah.

And it's got that parliament
sample on there, I think, which

sets it up, which is not a very,
you know, Funkin for fun.

Like it's not a super like, you
know, known parliament kind of a

groove, but they almost put the,
oh, you've got to.

Piss, I got to go.
When's the Parliament episode

dropping?
Yeah, we gotta do that.

Gotta do that.
Who's?

Who's giving us that chicken
scratch on the guitar?

Those albums sound so good.
Wow.

Incredible.
I think to Jay Dilla, like we

got it like he's this is going
to be a through line in here to

who I I can never like I'm
never.

I'd love to hear you guys
opinion.

Is he like the ultimate jazz
musician of the MPC or does he

have nothing to do with jazz?
I have no idea, but he fits in

with this kind of stuff and is
such a he's such an influence

even when he's not like I know
famously on voodoo, I don't

think he's credited on anything
but everybody.

And I know Roy told me like he
was very involved with that, but

like just the the the kind of
like meteoric rise and then and

then fading away because we lost
him so soon.

But like on how we how the beat
was interpreted, which has

always been a big thing in jazz.
And far as you're going to pull

back, are you going to push?
And his kind of, you know, his

concept on that was like
actually way above jazz

musicians, I think in a lot of
ways because he was so conscious

of it and like playing around
like what that did.

I think for us as jazz
musicians, we just sort of play

behind the beat or play ahead of
the beat, sometimes sort of a

little bit randomly.
Oh, is that what you do?

That's kind of what I know.
Well, let's move on here.

I'm going to skip ahead just a
little bit, and I want to cover

just a couple of of the newer,
very, very new things that I

thought would be cool to talk
about.

The first one was a
recommendation by by you guys,

and that's this track from
Cautious Clay called "Another Half"

that features incredible jazz
guitarist Julian Lage.

Yeah.
I need another half like I need

you.
Not too many sober nights and

wounds outside.
You're the answer.

You want a good life in a little
school to change your mind.

The bulb is bright.
You're the answer.

We revel in the silence on our
own little islands.

But we can't be alone.
We didn't get here

intentionally.
Yeah, and the weight won't give,

but it's giving me something.
How good is that?

I'll meet another half like I
need you.

So this is a Blue Note album.
This is from an album called

Karpeh.
And this is, again, Julian

Lajeon guitar, but it's a lot of
Blue Note recording artists

here.
Ambrose Akinmusire is on

trumpet, Immanuel Wilkins on
saxophone, Joel Ross on the

vibes.
I think all of those people

we've talked about on the show
before, Julius Rodriguez, you guys

on the keyboard guys, What's
your thought on this?

One thing that immediately
stands out is that one reason

that we bring jazz musicians
into the studio to record more

popular songs is that they're
excellent and that they can, on

the one level, you can bring a
Ron Carter in and you're going

to get like Ron Carter vibes.
What I think is really

interesting here is that Julian
is an unbelievable virtuoso.

His level of harmony, his speed,
all of his stuff, whatever.

He can play anything, but I
think that's part of why you

might bring him in it.
And, and I think he's incredibly

adaptive to what this track
needs.

He's playing sort of neo-soul
and like a lot of actually sort

of Hendrixy licks, which is not
something you're going to hear

on a Julian Lage record.
You're hearing him play for what

the track needs.
And that's why so many great

jazz musicians, jazz musicians
make great studio musicians.

They can serve the song.
Right, right.

That's right.
You had mentioned Motown

earlier, and let's not forget
that that rhythm section was a

bunch of Detroit jazz musicians.
Absolutely.

For the same reason.
Yeah.

They're flexible, they're
versatile, and they're

excellent.
I like that.

I think this, this album also I,
I first of all, I, I think it's

just a really exciting listen
and I encourage people to check

out the rest of it because
there's, there's other jazz

elements that that kind of take
you by surprise throughout,

throughout the the album.
And it, it probably also speaks

to the fact like, like Charlie
was saying that we also have a

generation of jazz musicians
right now who don't necessarily

see the same boundaries between
jazz and R&B, hip hop, pop.

That, that maybe we're, we're,
we're, we're kind of stronger in

the past.
Those, those walls between

these, these genres and, and,
and, and, and maybe even even

more importantly, that I, I
don't sense that there, there a

lot of contemporary jazz artists
don't have like don't look down

their nose at pop, which, which
was the thing when I was growing

up and I was, I was like taking
jazz jazz classes and doing and

doing jazz programs.
It was like we were all kind of

in in unison being like, yeah,
that that pop world, that's not

for us, you know, it's.
Like a badge.

Model.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's

harmonically simple.
It's it's structurally

predictable.
It's it's only it's corporate,

it's commercial.
I, I, I don't, I, I think

there's a, a, a more sort of
holistic approach to music

making now from, from a lot of
young jazz musicians is, is my

general sense.
I think you're absolutely,

absolutely right.
And like, because I came up in

that Young Lions period, I
that's why I like, I think Roy

Hargrove, but others too, you
know, Branford Marsalis, Brad

Mehldau, Brad Mehldau, Christian
McBride, like that was a big

deal when they broke out of that
Young Lions kind of like, no,

no, no, that's not for us.
We we, you know, it's the number

of notes, it's the number of
chord extensions that make

something great.
Is it swinging or whatever

things that what I think the
younger players now just take

for granted.
Like, no, we can float into

these other things.
And like Charlie, what you're

saying like we're not just
bringing a jazz player because

they're going to play bebop line
on top of something, you know

what I mean?
Like because they're skilled in

a number of different almost the
way like the occasional

classical musician can come in,
if they know how to play like

with different crews and stuff,
you know, they're going to bring

a certain skill level to the
party, right?

And and like maybe jazz trained
musicians have kind of become

that, you know, those cogs that
you can really put in and know

are going to get executed well.
Well, the the training that is

required to become a great jazz
musician requires you to study

an immense repertoire.
And we're not talking when we

say jazz.
It's such a loaded and

complicated term because what
are we talking about, right?

We've, we've got over a century
of music that we're talking

about.
Right.

Right.
So like a great pop producer,

when they're coming in to
produce a record, they're

thinking about what, what are we
trying to evoke here?

What is the emotion?
What is the feeling?

In order to get that feeling,
what references do we need to

pull from, what eras, what
sounds?

And so a great jazz musician is
going to have lots of different

eras and sounds to be able to
pull from, to find the proper

grammar to make a song come
alive.

Yeah.
Absolutely.

Well, and it it's a great lead
into what we have coming up

next, because one of the
greatest artists, I think alive

on earth today did exactly what
you're talking about, Charlie.

They wanted a flavor.
And so they brought in one of

the greatest jazz pianists alive
on earth today and have them do

this.
Yeah.

So this is a huge hit album.
Yeah.

This is Kendrick from Kendrick
Lamars to To Pimp a Butterfly.

So what A Butterfly.
To Pimp a Butterfly.

That's Robert.
How do you pimp a butterfly?

Well, that's you got to listen
to the album.

Pulitzer Prize winning.
That's right, pimping here. 100%

that's of course Robert Glasper,
who we just talked about his

Black Radio album and how
influential that was.

And I think speaking to just
exactly what we were talking

about here, Robert Glasper, who
is I think either either young

Gen.
X or old millennial, but of the

generation where the the sort of
barriers between jazz and

everything else have certainly
come down.

Yeah.
And that's also Terrace Martin

on the Alto saxophone, who is
hugely influential in in sort of

the behind the scenes for a lot
of the things we're talking

about here.
Producer.

Produced this track.
He did I think produced several

the jazzy and and otherwise
tracks on this album.

So I I'd say like the sound and
concept.

I don't know exactly what was
discussed between him and

Kendrick.
I know was obviously very

involved with this being his
album.

But but Terrace, who's a major
pop hip hop producer, was

producing this track and and
Robert Glasper talks about when

he came into the studio, he
said, what kind of vibe do you

want?
And Tara said straight up Kenny

Kirkland, Branford Marsalis,
late 80s like knew exactly the

reference.
And, and Glasper, by the way,

nailed that shit Like, Oh yeah,
just.

Like that was, if his wheelhouse
had a wheelhouse, it would have

been what was asked of him.
It's great and it's just so an

expensive second track I took.
I took the vocals out, by the

way, but it sounds amazing.
It's a family show.

My mom listens.
The.

Show but it's an incredible
recording and the Hammond

Glasper came in to just do that
but did several other songs on

the album which we can talk
about but yeah guys to build a

butterfly maybe the the prime
example of this.

I think we've done a little
disservice by not playing the

lyrics here because I, I think
this is actually a really great

example of what musical grammar
are we going to use to evoke

what feeling, right?
And this song is basically this,

this argument between two people
who are just going nuts at each

other, right?
And choosing a sort of language

of free jazz has this sort of
feel like everyone's talking

over each other.
It's intense.

It's like it's discordant there.
It it feels very like an

appropriate marriage between
what he's trying to say.

Right.
For sure you want to play a

little bit with the lyrics.
Mom, stop listening.

Adam's mom.
Fuck you motherfucker, you a hoe

ass *** You trying to go big ***
you ain't shit.

Walking around like you.
God's gift to earth *** you

ain't shit.
You ain't even buy me no outfit

for the 4th.
I need that Brazilian WAVY 28

inch you playing.
I shouldn't be fucking with you

anyway.
I need a baller ass boss ass ***

You the all brand ass ***
Everybody know it, your homies

know it, everybody fucking know.
Fuck you *** don't call me no

more.
Oh no, you gonna lose on the

good bitch.
My other *** is on you off.

What the fuck is really going
on?

This Dick ain't.
Free you looking?

At me like it ain't like it's me
eating your I.

Gotta, sorry, I gotta jump in
here, this Dick, Charlie, you

know, you know, I, I love
everything you do, but I, I do

feel like you've
mischaracterized this.

This track.
Oh, thank you.

I'm I'm not the jazz head.
Please correct me.

Well, it's not even about no
about the lyrics.

I mean, this the, the, the, the,
the, the female character in

this I, I've always heard is
representing the like the Voice

of America, essentially the
voice of the, of the United

States history.
Even though she's like just

talking smack at Kendrick, she
is actually like standing in for

American history.
And Kendrick is coming back at

her and being like, Hey, you've
mistreated me and my people

throughout our existence here
and now I'm going to take what's

mine, you know, like the last,
if we if we Fast forward to the

very end of of his of his flow,
he says, you know, I I pick

cotton and made you rich.
Now my Dick ain't free.

So it's like it's very profane
and in your face and angry.

But it's ultimately, I think a a
really, really a commentary on

like, you know, racial injustice
throughout American history.

What?
What is?

What are the jazz references in
the track doing for you?

Yeah, Yeah.
Great.

I mean, when he comes in and the
way the way, the way he says

that first line, this Dick ain't
free.

It's like he's he's referencing
this tradition, even though the

language is very different.
I think he's referencing this

tradition of like jazz poetry,
slam poetry.

I feel like he's channelling for
sure.

Gil Scott Heron and the The Last
Poets and and and other kind of

spoken word slam jazz poets.
Love Jones.

And it's it's, it's a medium
that allows you to, to project

that, that subversive
countercultural put political

language, I think.
Improvised well and and

musically Peter when you think
of late 80s Kenny Kirkland.

Oh, it's C minor too.
Yeah, well, that's the C.

Minor burnout.
What's the album that comes to

mind?
Wynton's Black.

Codes From the Underground.
Black Codes from the

Underground.
Yeah, Wynton Marsalis is Black

Codes From the Underground,
which sounds exactly what what

glass for in this rhythm
section.

Who I just want to shout out
real quick, Brandon Owens on the

bass and Robert “Sput” Searight on
the drums.

And The thing is too like
underneath, like once they go,

once the brakes stop and they
just start going and they're

going with the back and forth
between Kendrick and the other

voice.
That's all a Blues underneath.

Like it's a very it's AC minor
Blues, which is like the most

typical key that that would be
done very Coltrane influence

certainly up to.
C Minor burnout.

C minor burnout, but I think the
fact that it's a Blues to, you

know, filtering and now your
commentary, Nate and you're

you're kind of that lens with
which you're looking at it is

interesting that it's a Blues
underneath, but it's not the

kind of Blues most people would
be like.

That's not blue Z, but the form
is straight up Blues.

There's one moment that I would
love to listen to together that

I mean, I, I remember listening
this this album came out 2013, I

think, and 2015.
I remember 2015, thank you.

And I remember listening to it
straight through and the I mean,

the first track is is stunning.
There's, I think George Clinton

introduces it and.
Thundercat's on it.

Yeah, Thundercat's on it and
it's.

And you're like plunged into
this kind of psychedelic sound

world.
And so first track I'm like,

wow, this is really this is
really something.

And then the second track is
this, you know, yeah, Kenny

Kirkland burning jazz.
And I was like, this is this is

the greatest thing I've.
Ever.

It's like I'm in.
No, me too, I remember.

There's this moment, I'm sorry,
I don't know exactly where it

is, but basically Kendrick and
and the drummer kind of lock

into this.
Yeah, I know where you're

talking.
About Hemiola rhythm, they're

they're dividing the the the
beat into rows of three one and

they start doing these hits
across the the measure.

People less fortunate like
myself.

Every dog has his day now.
Doggy style show help.

This Dick ain't free.
Matter of fact, you need

interest.
Matter of fact.

It's 9 inches.
Matter of fact, see your

friendship based on business.
Bitch, you're more bitching your

bitch, your moccasins.
It's been relentless.

Fuck, forgive me, fuck you
friends.

Fuck your sauce.
It's all distortion.

If we fuck, it's more abortion,
more divorce course and portion

my check with less endorsement.
Let.

Me price pressure busting choice
choices devastated decapitated

divorce me.
Ohh America you bad bitch.

I pick cotton there, makes you
rich.

Now my Dick game.
Free.

I'm gonna.
Get my Uncle Sam to fuck.

You up, get my Uncle Sam to fuck
you up.

Man, shout out Robert.
Very cool moment.

Oh, sorry, Peter.
No, no, I, no, please go ahead

'cause that that was.
Just so, yeah.

So they're like, so we're in
44123, but they're going 12131.

Yeah, they're flowing.
The three over the four, which

is and and Kendrick is locked
into it too, which makes it so

cool.
And it's, it's a nice reminder

of how MCS like to play with
with rhythmic displacement like

like this.
And something we've talked about

on the podcast actually is
what's sometimes called the, the

triplet flow in, in hip hop
groups like Migos, for instance,

they created, they didn't, they
didn't create the style, but

they, you know, popularized
this, this style of, of rapping

where you divide the beat into
triplets a lot like a jazz

musician that one of their best
known songs is Versace and the

chorus of which is just this,
this triplet Versace, Versace,

Versace, Versace, Versace,
Versace.

That's something that Kendrick
does a lot too.

He'll drop these triplet flows
in into the middle of a verse.

It's it feels, I just feels very
jazz coded to me.

Totally and I think too like
that he goes to some lot some

bigger triplets too sometimes
like some half-note triplets over

a bar.
You know that almost feel free

and then he on this, he's very
much soloing like a jazz

musician over this in that
you're going like there's almost

a syncopation between when he's
going out of time and then going

like locking into the time.
It's like a thing that that's

used as like to kind of get you
off and even like that part that

that that you just highlighted
with with drums and him and then

you just deck them bang right at
the top of the chorus.

You know, it's like everything
is off kilter and then it lines

up, but then you're starting on
the next 12 bar journey of like,

where is it going to go?
It's it's super, super

compelling and like just sets up
the storytelling even without

the lyrics.
I mean the the lyrics takes it

next level of course.
A Pulitzer level.

Yeah, yeah.
But I mean, I would say that

even if this, if you would just
sort of represent what he's

doing and as in terms of a solo
rhythmically with the way

they're playing in the rhythm
section, it'd be very musically

compelled.
Totally.

And we talk about here, you
know, learning rhythmic

vocabulary and transcribing
snare drum solos.

Shout out Open Studio.
You know what I'm saying?

And you can easily transcribe
Kendrick's rhythmic solo here as

a snare drum, Yeah, with maybe
one or two pitches and learn a

lot about, like, Nate, what you
were talking about, these

hemiolas that he puts over.
Yeah, 443 or 4.

But you know, when you make art
at this level, it has so many

ripples.
Obviously this was such a

incredibly impactful and
influential album and it

influenced even some people that
are not in in the same genre as

this or even close so.
I just got to throw out one

thing on this.
I just put this connection

together.
Maybe Nate, you and Charlie

might know about this, but here
in this background that they

were asked to do the Kenny
Kirkland kind of thing.

Sting had a record called Dream
of the Blue Turtles in like 83

or it was his first solo record
after the police broke up.

Branford and Kenny were on that.
Ran from ourselves on it, Kenny

Kirkland's on it, Omar Hakim on
drums.

It was kind of Sting's first
sort of, I'm putting a jazz band

together.
Well, not it was.

No, it was actually, it was
basically I'm going to get kind

of what Charlie was saying
earlier in terms of like

bringing in really skilled
musicians to do a number of

things 'cause they didn't do a
lot of jazz.

But there was one track on that
record, I can't, can't remember

what it's called, but they just
start swinging out.

It's slower than this, but same
thing.

And of course, Kenny Kirkland,
no one had to tell him to do his

Kenny shit because he's Kenny
Kirkland.

And they just, oh, it's Doo did
lit Doo did lit Doo did it?

Sting's not even on it.
Or maybe he's playing guitar or

something.
And then they're like bop, bop,

bop bop.
It's this kind of weird British.

And then all of sudden they're
like spang Bang Bang, and they

just start.
Yeah.

And then Kenny's just sort of
going crazy like this.

So that's a little, I don't
mean, I don't know if Kendrick

had heard that or if Terrace
Martin for sure would have known

it.
So that's kind of like dropping

that in there into it, you know,
an instrumental thing.

Well, yeah.
And it's funny because then this

goes on to influence musicians
like David Bowie.

So David Bowie's producer Tony
Visconti says he and Bowie were

listening to a lot of Kendrick
Lamar, particularly To Pimp A

Butterfly, as they were making
his last.

Album Blackstar.
We loved the fact that Kendrick

was so open minded and he didn't
do a straight up hip hop record.

He threw everything on there and
that's exactly what they wanted

to do.
So one night, I believe on the

recommendation of Maria
Schneider, I could be wrong

about it, but I think I heard
this, that Bowie went down to

the 55 bar and for any New York
dusty jazz positions.

The dustiest of the dusty.
RIP 55 bar, but the the quartet

that was there that night was
saxophonist Donny McCaslin,

keyboardist Jason Lindner,
incredible piano player.

Tim Lefebvre.
Say, say again.

Tim Lefebvre, I just got him to
save you because I know that's a

hard.
Tim Lefebvre and then Mark

Giuliana, a friend of the show
Mark Guiliana on the

drums.
And that was really the

beginnings of them starting to
make this album, which is

always, you know, final
masterpiece.

Incredible album, actually.
Blackstar about his own death

that that dropped I think two
weeks after he passed away.

Stands a solitary candle in the
center of it all in the center

of it.
All.

Then monitor guitar.
It's like a. 76 year old man's

album.
Yeah, Unbelievable. 76

something.
Yeah, wow, Wow.

But yeah, those are some really
heavy jazz musicians on that

album, on Bowie's last album.
And I I think again, to your

point, like a lot of excellence.
Marc Giuliana, one of the

greatest drummers in the world,
and all of them all, everybody

in that quintet, you said, who
is the.

Guitarist Ben Monder.
Yeah.

Who wasn't part of the quartet.
But I mean, I, I wonder how is

this unusual?
You guys think that a pop star,

a pop icon like a David Bowie
or, or you know, anybody that

would bring like we've already
shown not to bring a jazz

musician into either fill a, a,
a, a specific need like a Ron

Carter or to bring in highly
skilled musicians or Roy

Hargrove to layer wonderful horn
lines.

But to bring a whole working
because I believe they were

working group at that time.
I remember seeing them, the

Donny McCaslin like that,
that quartet, they were

associated to bring a whole band
in to kind of craft a concept

record around that, a whole jazz
group.

I wonder if that's been done
before.

The one example that comes to
mind is there's this group

called Bad, Bad, Not Good from
Canada, and they have they've

been enlisted by a few pop
artists like.

Like Kali Uchis, I, I believe
the, the Colombian American

singer and, and a few other pop
artists to, to come in and, and

sort of, you know, create a
track together on on the fly

and, and, and I think that's a
good point.

What, what, what you just said,
Peter, and, and, and going back

to what Charlie said earlier, I,
I, I, I imagine for an artist

like Bowie, there's a real joy
in being able to go into the

studio and, and just, you know,
improvise and, and jam and have

this group of musicians who can
respond in real time to your

ideas and generate things on the
fly because that's what they've

trained for and that's what
they're used to doing.

And.
Yeah.

And and not not to say that pop
studio musicians can't do this

as well, but but I think there's
a certain maybe another level of

freedom or or maybe pop
musicians are more used to being

just told what to play and
playing it.

No, I actually think, Nate,
there's there's so much

commonality between how
contemporary pop writing happens

and the improvisatory nature of
jazz that that, you know, we get

to talk to a lot of pop stars.
I just interviewed Zara Larsson

just before this, just, we just
popped Pop star.

And, you know, the Swedes are
particularly known for, you

know, having this sort of like,
sense of melodic math is like,

there's a lot of perfection that
goes into the work.

But she's describing the
processes so often, you know,

four people getting in the room,
talking about, figuring out what

are they all equally into?
And then a lot of intuitive

freestyling, trying things out.
A lot of melody is written

entirely through freestyle
improvisation and then composed

together.
And then lyrics are put on top

of them.
Clearly, when you have amazing

musicians, that whole process
just goes faster, right?

And the whole goal is working
with a team of people that bring

different things and they they
balance each other so, so that

you get some kind of unique kind
of outcome.

That is so much of how pop
records are made today,

actually, that that that has a
lot in common with, with a great

quintet.
You're like, you get something

unique with that, with that set
of players.

Yeah.
And I think the thing, you know,

even as technologies has changed
and the industry has changed and

everything, one thing with jazz
musicians, I think we've always

had this as part of our DNA is
to not be highly produced in the

way pop artists would be.
Because we're used to going in

and doing a record in one day or
maybe 2 days.

So I remember like I remember
the early the mid 90s when like

stuff like we have three days to
do it.

That was a big budget thing.
So it's like how much you know,

how much like you had to come in
the leader or even if it was a

group.
I mean I remember making records

with Joshua, remember where he
come up with the charts and

everything.
And we'd already not really

rehearsed but played it on the
gigs.

And this was just about like,
let's see how quickly we can,

not to rush through it, but just
to see how fresh we could get a

complete take.
And if we have to add a little

bit, we will.
Whereas if you bring in, I'm

sure even with Bowie, with
bringing in these great jazz

musicians who had done some pop
stuff, I mean, all of them.

But it's like, OK, let's sit.
And I don't know how quick they

did it, but like, it's
uncomfortable.

Uncomfortable for a jazz
musician to sit for two or three

months making like we don't know
what to do after the first it's.

Unnatural Well, I think there's
a technical reason for the two

or three take thing is because
when you're improvising and the

majority of the music that
you're making is improvised, it

gets stale very, very fast.
So anything over 5 takes and

you're just you said all you can
say and it's very hard to just

keep going and keep going.
And so it's a lesson you have to

learn when you start recording
jazz in a studio.

Like I'm ready on take one to to
just be fresh.

And usually that's going to be
the best take.

Maybe not as far as like
cohesiveness, but for the vibe

and the energy of the band.
Everybody's fresh and in the

moment.
And it that gets harder and

harder with each additional
take.

And I, I wonder if this is like
maybe we've, we've kind of

hinted at jazz musicians
overplaying, but it is something

we're trained to do to respond
and react.

We're not sensitive about that,
are we?

I mean, you're the one who
insisted on the keyboard on the

podcast Noodles.
Well, but think about it like

this record, it was recorded
very differently than they

typically like even like
bringing Ron, like Ron Carter I

can guarantee you was in the
studio for about an hour and a

half laying that and he might
have laid that down in the the

1st 6 minutes.
We know that from our own

experience.
Yeah, yeah.

We've worked with with, but I'm
like, that's typically that's

sort of the the usual way of
using a jet.

Like they can come in and do it
quickly, They can hear it, they

can lay down their part.
I mean, Roy Hargrove was like lays

down and layers up those horn
lines so fast, you know, not to

say that he can't sit around and
create more stuff after that.

Yeah, I mean.
While though is I just feel like

you're talking about a great pop
singer laying their vocals down.

It's the same thing, really.
It's a great point.

If you don't do it in the first
five takes, you're going to blow

your voice out.
You kind of will have lost all

the the great unique emotion
that each phrase has.

That's right.
The, and then it, you know, you

watch them like Ariana Grande
layer her vocals.

She's just like, great, I need
this note, this note, this note,

and she's just punching each one
in super, super fast, super

intuitive.
And that's just, it feels like

there's so much in common.
Really the big difference here

is going to be that a pop vocal
is going to be comped together

and you're going to get, of
those 7 takes, you're going to

take one phrase, then another
phrase, another phrase.

So you get this sort of more
pristine perfect presentation,

but the process is actually very
similar.

For sure, and even Charlie that
that doesn't not happen on some

jazz rap records as well where
they come together a solo if

they can.
I was, I, I'm reminded here of

this part of, of what we're
talking about here, of, of we

did an episode recently on
Stevie Wonder's Innervisions

where Stevie's playing most of.
The instruments.

We really broke news on this
record because we felt like the

world didn't know it.
We talked about how great it is,

how Stevie wrote these.
It's a concept record.

We really nailed it.
We went outside the box. 2

middle-aged jazz pianist talking
about Stevie Wonder, but.

What's still the same episode?
But what's so great about that

music?
And I think what's so great

about like Ron Carter on The
Tribe Called Question about

Robert Glasper on the To Pimp A
Butterfly is that we talked

about the sort of wabi-sabi
nature of Peter, of Peter of

Stevie playing the Moog bass,
playing the drums and not doing

the same thing.
Every verse around is different,

every chorus is different, and
there's something special.

And I think the best pop
producers and musicians

recognize that.
I think we have our own

prejudices as jazz musicians of
like, well, it's robotic and

it's programmed and it's on a
grid and it's, you know, this

than that.
But I think that's, you know,

Charlie, yeah, that's not the
case.

It has.
Well, it often, yeah.

It has its own aesthetic
preferences, which often can be

at odds with what jazz musicians
might want.

But there often is more common
language than you might expect.

Which makes me.
I actually would like to go back

to Blackstar for a second, if
you don't mind, because I was

surprised when I think, Nate,
you recommended this album.

And I've loved this album.
I had never gone deep into who

was playing.
There was not one moment of me

that had ever thought, oh, this
is a jazz record.

These are these are jazz
musicians.

So I'm especially curious for
you guys are open studio

friends, like, yeah, what, what
What is your impression of this

music?
Does does it feel like the

language of jazz?
What's happening here?

So I think especially like the
key piece to this for me is

drummer Marc Giuliana, who has
been on some real landmark

modern jazz recordings in the
last 1520 years.

And it feels like his playing.
He made an album, a duo album

with Brad Meldo called.
It's a great album.

But to me, there's not much
difference between what happens

there and what happens here.
He's a little more restrained,

and it's not this through like
this through composed kind of

thing, but it's the same style
of playing.

It's the same, it's the same
rhythmic sensibility that's

going out these like incredibly
syncopated and broken down

rhythms where you can hear like
just in that in the Blackstar,

we hear the the beat come in
that, that, that, that, that,

that, that that there's this
like offbeat 16th note thing

that's happening throughout.
That to me is like a hallmark of

marks playing and how precise it
is.

You know, like you mentioned
Charlie excellence.

It's like that is the precision
of someone who's.

But I think I, and correct me if
I'm wrong, Charlie, I think what

Charlie's saying is like, if you
didn't know Mark Guiliana

personally, would you didn't
know his work?

Would you think, oh wow, these
are some jazzy guys playing

behind?
The way?

Not necessarily.
Yeah, yeah.

I would say partially.
Certainly how it's produced, how

it's mixed, the the the
prominence of the snare is much

more a sort of rock pop kind of
thing for sure where the snare

really takes a back seat in so
many styles of jazz.

Probably not in marks playing,
but amongst many jazz drummers,

you know they're playing top
down, right?

It's not all kick snare.
For sure, yeah.

The only thing that might pop
out is if I hear a tenor

saxophone.
I mean, just like with Terrace

Martin, I'd be like, who's that?
Because there's just not a lot

of saxophone.
Sure, in.

But but Castle.
Nearly enough.

We need more by the way. 80s
style saxophone breaks.

Right.
But Castle on this record is, I

don't know about purpose.
Like he's playing less for sure

jazzy than almost anything I've
ever heard him on.

And Tim Lefebvre is a great
base player, but I mean, he's not

really.
He can play jazz, but he's not a

jazz.
I know Tim, and like, he's

there.
It wasn't going to be like Rudy.

Rogers or something?
Yeah, no one had to tell him

like I'd he's off the, you know,
the Ron Carter lines or

whatever.
So I almost wonder if, like now

that I'm thinking about that
Sting record, it was as simple

because like Branford Marsalis
and Kenny Kirkland were both

playing in the same band when
Sting took that, but the rest of

it was not like this.
Where was the whole band?

Omar Hakim was really more of AI
mean.

He's not.
He never was really a jazz first

drummer.
He could play jazz, but that

wasn't his thing.
And Daryl Jones was playing bass

on that with that record.
So it was kind of like a

combination.
Certainly a couple of guys that

could go.
I wonder if Sting and if Bowie

too were like, all right, I'm
going to get jazz players, but

I'm going to get at least a
couple of them that are not like

jazz first kind of players, you
know all.

Right.
Hold on.

I just want to find what you're
talking about here.

That's not the one I was talking
about.

That's that's that's Jazzy.
That's what he was like.

He got a little too confident.
Shut up, Sting.

Love you Sting.
Or My Funny Valentine.

I've Yeah, But.
Yeah, it's it's dangerous for a

pop artist to get too jazzy,
honestly.

I mean these these if I think of
a like a big pop artist who who

who made a a fully fledged jazz
album, one of the things that

comes from my mind is Andre
3000, formerly of Outcast. 100%.

Who who a few years ago released
this instrumental album anchored

by his improvised flute playing
called New Blue Sun.

And it's very, to me, it's, it
reminds me of like Hubert Law's

CTI records from the 70s or, or
maybe even Youssef Latif or, or

kind of mystical exploratory
jazz.

And, and that was a huge, you
know, for him to do that was a

huge swing for the fences and,
and it actually paid off

remarkably.
And he got a lot of, you know,

acclaim for.
What album of the year at the

Grammys?
Yeah, it was his first album in

how many years too?
Or like sense. 20 years, yes.

Yeah, 20.
Years.

But would you consider that a
jazz album?

No, Look, I'm gonna go back to
my online.

Get on yourself.
Box mid mid 80s.

Yeah, I mean, more certainly
those those people he were

playing with are a lot of them
are from the jazz world, Carlos

Nino and and Nate Mercer or have
jazz training.

But yeah, I would I wouldn't
fire.

I wouldn't put it in in Tower
Records under jazz necessarily.

But but I'm, I'm bringing, I
think I'm bringing it up as an

example of, you know, take it
would take a lot of a lot of

Hutzpah for, for a big pop star
to say, I'm going to, I'm going

to make an album that's that's
like truly a jazz record.

It would, it would it would
require a lot of faith for your

for your audience to go there
with you.

So I think it's more frequent
for people to do their sound and

have it be enlivened by by jazz
musicians.

People who try to go and really
cite jazz from being like a

bigger pop star in another
genre, that that approach has

been tried many times and it
often backfires.

Like I think about Christina
Aguilera had a record in 2006

called Back to Basics and, and
the title tells you exactly what

you're going to get.
You're going to get some swing.

And I actually think there's
some really cool stuff on that

record, but.
She is like an Andrew's Sisters

inspired track.
Way back to basics.

Yeah, you never want to go full.
Rod Stewart Exactly.

There's a certain amount.
It's like, oh, so now you're

like, now you're doing like
Vegas lounge singing.

Is is the the translation that
can happen?

Well, everybody should check out
Switched on Pop, one of the

great music podcasts there is.
OG and leader in our field.

So inspiring guys.
Thank you, Nate.

Thank you, Charlie.
Thank you guys for chatting with

us.
See you in seven years, no.

No, please don't.
Thanks guys.

Cool.