00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:00
Unknown
Peter Martin what's up man? Today on the show, we've got Rob from 60 songs that explain the 90s podcast. I love Rob, I love his pod, and I love the 90s. Yeah. Me too. And I thought in honor of all of that, maybe we start the show off with, like, an iconic 90 song, a song that maybe defined that decade.
00:00:15:01 - 00:00:23:08
Unknown
Oh, I got you. I got you. It's a 90s, right? Yeah. You remember those? Oh, yes, sir.
00:00:23:10 - 00:00:43:05
Unknown
Oh, did not see this coming, but I love it. Yeah. You know, they all went back to Titanic in the end. And Celine Dion's My Heart Will Go On. I was thinking maybe, like, Yeah. It's 92.
00:00:43:06 - 00:02:09:12
Unknown
Yeah, that's definitely 90s. But I think we need something more jazz. Something better for this. Something like fits our vibe a little more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like some Gen-X jazz. Kind of. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, Bob's got it, got it. Oh, yeah.
00:02:09:14 - 00:02:27:13
Unknown
I'm Adam, and I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It podcast. Music explored. Explored. Brought to you today by Open Studio. Go to open studio jazz.com for oh, your jazz lesson needs. Peter. Today's another special day. It is because it's always special day. Here it is. You're here. Some days are more special than others. That's right.
00:02:27:15 - 00:02:47:14
Unknown
But today we're talking about an incredible, monumental song. Yeah, one of my favorite albums of the 20 tens. And we also have a very special guest on the show today. Joining us is Rob Havilah. Rob is the music journalist at The Ringer and the creator of 60 songs to Explain the 90s. Colon. The 2000. Yeah. Rob, thanks for being here, man.
00:02:47:16 - 00:03:04:03
Unknown
It's so embarrassing when anyone else says the call it. It's really funny when I say it, but it's humiliating when anyone else says it. I don't know how that works. I don't know how to say because if I say 60 songs that to explain the 90s, the 2000, you know what I mean? It's a little of work at all.
00:03:04:04 - 00:03:29:06
Unknown
I mean, you need punctuation there. The colon is necessary. The colon is absolutely unnecessary. It's just mortifying to say, you know, then, so today, Rob, we brought you here because, you know, you have this incredible show where you talk about individual songs and, and their cultural significance, specifically with your stories involved of growing up in the 90s and the 2000.
00:03:29:08 - 00:03:48:23
Unknown
And for me, this track and I think for everybody here, we're going to be talking about Robert Glasper as Afro Blue from Black Radio. This track is, one of those cultural touchstones, I think, for a lot of musicians and a lot of music lovers from that era. Before we get into it, Rob, what's your relationship with this song?
00:03:48:23 - 00:04:07:15
Unknown
Have you spent much time with this? I remember I listened to this when it came out, and I've dipped into and out of Robert Glasper over the years. I'd never done like, the deep dive, so I was very excited to have the opportunity to do that. I think I comment this song more from the Erykah Badu side of things.
00:04:07:15 - 00:04:27:22
Unknown
I love Erica Badu, one of my favorite artists ever, one of my favorite singers, one of my favorite live performers. Yeah. You know, so that's that's the draw for me to the extent that, you know, part of what's great about this record is he has all these guests, you know, who pull in people, you know, from the R&B world to hip hop world, you know, MOS Def, etc..
00:04:27:23 - 00:04:49:18
Unknown
Like, I this is the feature that really got me right. Like if Erica Badu is interested in this person, that I am automatically ten times more interested in this person, you know? Well, and I think you've already brought up what was going to be one of my big hot takes on this for this track from what I remember on this, everybody that was sort of outside of the jazz, you know, intelligentsia.
00:04:49:19 - 00:05:09:17
Unknown
Is that an oxymoron? We don't know. But I thought this was a Erica Badu single, right. And possibly from some Erykah Badu album. This was it was Erica Badu's Afro Blue. Was that was that your guys recollection of it? I mean, for me, it was such a big deal, this whole album. Yeah. That, that was not my recollection.
00:05:09:22 - 00:05:32:05
Unknown
I definitely was very much featuring Erykah Badu. See, Rob, that's his way of saying he's part of the jazz until I it be the head of the jazz intelligentsia. Is that a different body than the jazz police? Is that like? Yeah. Very different. I think it's a jazz until it's not connected, though. I think jazz intelligentsia is a espresso roast, isn't it?
00:05:32:07 - 00:05:51:23
Unknown
I feel like it might be Chicago. Okay. So before we get too deep, though, into black radio and Afro blue rod, because you're on our show, we want to kind of pay a little tribute to you in your podcast style. So Rob does these great at these great intros to his subjects, where he goes down a little off, off the beaten path where you're like, wait, what are we talking about?
00:05:52:00 - 00:06:12:07
Unknown
I thought we were talking about the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Why are we talking about the hood? I ramble at great length. So we also love to ramble, but I wanted to start this conversation by talking about not Robert Glasper. Incredible musician, but another incredible musician, Herbie Hancock. Yes. So there's a lot of parallels. How are we able to work Herbie Hancock into this podcast?
00:06:12:09 - 00:06:32:21
Unknown
What an amazing thing. We've never done that before. We can't go 15 minutes without talking about Herbie. So this is I just listen to the thrust episode. You know, the Head Hunters episode, his greatest era. Like, that was rad, man. It's such a great, such a great album. Covers. That's the one where he's in a spaceship. Like a little circular spaceship.
00:06:32:21 - 00:06:50:19
Unknown
Like, I want that spaceship, man. Yeah, and 100% my dream to own a keyboard powered spaceship. Absolutely. For the circular bubble, it's powered by a circular synthesizer. I'll be the copilot with Herbie. That's my dream. If I were you, I wouldn't get in it. Honestly, it's not going to stay in the air very long. I don't have the FAA.
00:06:51:00 - 00:07:17:05
Unknown
It's definitely not. Okay. So here's follow me here. Right. So here's what I'm thinking. So there's some parallels here. So you know, in in Herbie's storied career, he starts out as this amazing prodigy. He's playing in straight ahead situations. Obviously he starts playing with Miles Davis, but there's a point in his solo career, specifically when he's with M1, DC, who we love.
00:07:17:05 - 00:07:39:12
Unknown
We love that M1 DC band, that project around right around 1970, where he's really exploring some spacey sounds. Yeah. So there's this point, though, that Herbie's on a, meditation retreat, and he's he's meditating for a long. He's like sitting a long session. He's he's singing a mantra in it, or he's he's speaking a mantra in his head.
00:07:39:14 - 00:08:02:11
Unknown
And he's a little bit frustrated with his spacey explorations. And as he's as he's sitting meditation with his mantra, this song comes into his head and won't get out of his head for the entire retreat. But.
00:08:02:13 - 00:08:26:02
Unknown
He's like, don't talk about my mantra. I don't think I would be able to meditate on. So he he gets Sly and the Family Stones thank you stuck in his head for this whole retreat. And he decides that funky music is something that he wants to explore. That he wants to play music that connects with people. It's not just, you know, an exploration for him and his bandmates.
00:08:26:03 - 00:08:53:09
Unknown
Oh, he's. No, I'm just saying. Wait, what? To be fair. To be fair, this is quite a few years before. I mean, after, yes. He had he had. Noodles is back. No, no, he had been he had been funkin it up a little bit. But he the precursor to. Yeah, of course, of course. But the M1, DC era, he's like you know going into really like these exploratory spaces and he just wasn't feeling he actually writes about this in his book a lot.
00:08:53:09 - 00:09:12:04
Unknown
He wasn't feeling connected even to his own music and especially to the audiences. So he decides that he's going to try a new sound. He was also frustrated with some of the jazz traditionalists, which, you know, this is a time where Miles is doing Bitches Brew and Jack Johnson in a silent way and on the corner, and people are like, what the hell is happening here?
00:09:12:04 - 00:09:43:03
Unknown
So Herbie chimes in with nothing more than this banger a I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I hope noodles is reaching for the keyboard like so that's chameleon of course from Herbie's. There it is from Herbie's Headhunters album and Herbie's all of a sudden he's in this, this new place.
00:09:43:03 - 00:10:00:03
Unknown
Now he like, dips back and forth to Straightahead jazz for the rest of his career. He does like, you know, they'll do acoustic piano duos with Chick Corea. He'll make trio albums. The VSOp stuff. Yeah, he's always doing. He was doing it last night. Somewhere in the world. Somewhere in the world. Last night, an 85 year old Herbie Hancock was doing it somewhere.
00:10:00:04 - 00:10:19:19
Unknown
Yeah, and it's kind of set the standard. Now, we had mentioned on that, that, Herbie's greatest era show that the end of we, we kind of calculated that the end of the Headhunters era would have been 1978. Now, 1978 was also the year that Robert Glasper was born. Do you guys like that as a segue now?
00:10:19:19 - 00:10:42:23
Unknown
Who's the jazz journalist now? Come on. And me, I was born in 1978 and as was, I was even more impressive. Right? Yeah. So it's, you know, work my way into this. Yes, it's Rob Glasper and Rob Villa and that you talk about in 1978. Yeah. So so I was alive in 78. I can throw that out there.
00:10:43:01 - 00:11:06:02
Unknown
You you're here. Robert Glass is born in 1978. And he grew up in Houston, Texas. Shout out to Houston, by the way. Yeah, so many great musicians, especially of Robert Glasper. His, era coming out of it is a big ass city. It's a huge ass statistically, you know, rolling. Yeah. But an unstoppable. Yeah. I mean, and they talked about the musicians that came out of the high school hit the performance performing arts that he went to.
00:11:06:02 - 00:11:30:09
Unknown
It's, endless parade. So, you know, Robert grew up in a musical home. His mom loved all kinds of music. He's listening to Oscar Peterson, he's listening to Aretha Franklin. He's also listening to Peter Gabriel and Billy Joel. And then he is even into things like Nirvana, Smells Like Teen Spirit, and, Radiohead, as most people who were born in 1978, you couldn't kind of get away from it at that time.
00:11:30:11 - 00:11:55:06
Unknown
And so just to kind of put a bow on the whole connection between Herbie's journey into more popular fare, you know, the Chameleon and the Headhunters album was, a huge hit, you know, like the the biggest selling jazz album to date when it was released. And I think that's something that Robert Glasper and Herbie have in common is it's like, mass appeal on Robert Glasper, his first trio album, Bob Hurst and Damien Reed.
00:11:55:06 - 00:12:13:04
Unknown
They opened the Al records with Maiden Voyage Herbie Hancock song. But listen to the arrangement.
00:12:13:06 - 00:12:32:09
Unknown
Wait, is this Brad Meltdown or Robert Glasper? Okay, you.
00:12:32:11 - 00:12:56:09
Unknown
So it's it's a mashup essentially, between Radiohead's Everything in Its Right Place from kid Yeah and Herbie Hancock's maiden Voyage. And I think that really sums up what Black Radio would become. You know, this like collaboration between, that's all kind of coming through, Robert, but it's this collaboration between old and new that's happening simultaneously in all of his music.
00:12:56:09 - 00:13:14:22
Unknown
And I think it's what makes him really compelling is he's not just forward thinking, but he's also backward thinking in that he's he's pulling from the past, he's looking towards the future. And you can say this about all of our favorite artists, you know, that's what great artists do, from Herbie Hancock to Miles Davis to, yeah, Robert Glasper.
00:13:15:00 - 00:13:35:06
Unknown
So awesome. Yeah. Good stuff. So what do you think, Rob? I was going to ask you if from the jazz side of things, when black radio came out, if it was seen as a provocation, you know, you've talked a lot about Herbie Hancock on the show and like I, my first introduction to Herbie Hancock was rocket. Yeah, right.
00:13:35:06 - 00:13:59:05
Unknown
Like I knew him as the rocket guy. And there came a moment where I was like, oh, he does jazz too. That's interesting. Like, that's it's it's almost offensive to say that. Yeah. But I, I've always understood, you know, the head hunters era to some extent. But rocket definitely, as you know, the jazz intelligentsia. Yeah. Jazz please. The jazz FBI the jazz CIA like yeah it upset or.
00:13:59:09 - 00:14:22:17
Unknown
Yeah, like gentlemanly for somebody, you know, for such a famous and beloved, you know, an important jazz musician to be doing, you know, however you would describe with the rocket video is doing that was an awesome video. Well, let's listen to just that. Really a hint of rocket. Hit it. Hit me. There it is. Oh yes. Swinging MTV 1984, 8483.
00:14:22:19 - 00:14:45:02
Unknown
But you're absolutely right, Rob. For a lot of folks, this was like their introduction to Herbie Hancock. Like a mass amount of people. And I was just I always wondered if, you know, people who had followed Robert Glasper his career because he's got like 3 or 4 albums, 4 or 5, maybe prior to black radio. He's got an established career and maybe he's not.
00:14:45:03 - 00:15:05:06
Unknown
Obviously, you know, he's doing he's working in Radiohead from the beginning. I think he actually does like a credited mash up of Maiden Voyage and everything, and it's right place on another album. He does like maybe his third record, like he he's known for experimentation, but this is still a huge break, it seems to me. And his discography, black radio.
00:15:05:06 - 00:15:36:12
Unknown
And I was just wondering if, like, jazz, people were upset at all about it. You know, I think, I'm trying to remember back to that time. I think it depended upon sort of where you came in to the music. Because, you know, I think Rob Robert, he he came just late enough that he caught a little bit of, like, the Wynton Marsalis kind of Branford Marsalis driven, you know, Roy Hargrove.
00:15:36:18 - 00:15:54:09
Unknown
And we definitely. You talk about Roy because he was a huge influence on for sure on, Glasper also from Texas, from Dallas. But, the idea that, like, he had a little bit more freedom than the first wave of the jazz Lions and as a part time journalist, I have to say that I was kind of part of that group.
00:15:54:09 - 00:16:21:11
Unknown
And so I don't have a lot of objectivity about it, but like, you know, Christian McBride, Roy Hargrove, Nicholas Payton, Mark Whitfield, that whole crew like, Joshua Redman, even we didn't have a lot of like, like things the record companies, the festivals, the way things were set up were pretty strict and pretty. I mean, yeah, you could you could depart a little bit, but it was more like, oh, like, I remember some of those records we did in the, I guess, early or mid 90s with Joshua Redman.
00:16:21:11 - 00:16:41:06
Unknown
People like, oh, oh, what are you you're playing a backbeat on a jazz record. What's going to happen in that kind of a thing? And then Roy Hargrove was somebody that was really big for kind of blowing that up, but staying within the tradition and always kind of going back and forth. So I think by the time Glasper came along, which it doesn't seem, he seems like he's part of that group, but he's not he's a little bit later.
00:16:41:06 - 00:17:06:20
Unknown
He's later. Yeah, I remember I was there's a great pianist, great guy named Jesse McBride in New Orleans late 90s, who was also from Houston. He was a couple of years ahead of Robert Glasper at the performing Arts High School there, and I was actually teaching him at University of New Orleans. I subbed for a semester for, Ellis Marsalis when he took a sabbatical, and I was like, only a few years older than Jesse, actually, but I was teaching him for whatever reason, which was basically just me and Jesse hanging out.
00:17:06:20 - 00:17:27:11
Unknown
But I remember that. And this must have been like, I don't know, 97, 98 sometime around there. But like, I remember him talking about, man, we got all these great musicians and this guy Rob, you got to hear him. He kept, like, every time we'd get together for a lesson, which was on the basketball court. Sometimes, sometimes in front of a piano, he'd be like, man, you know this guy Rob?
00:17:27:11 - 00:17:42:19
Unknown
He's going to make it. He's about to go up to New York, he's going up to New York. And I was like, yeah, but that's when I first heard about Robert Glasper, actually. Yeah. Was him talking about him. And so he came in just like a little bit later. He, he had a lot of like, you know, really, really good straight ahead jazz chops.
00:17:42:19 - 00:17:59:04
Unknown
But he was always doing other stuff. Always kind of I'm trying to remember like him and Bilal. That was pretty early on when he got to New York that they started doing things together. So it was really like he was sort of half a generation or a third of a generation later from the Young Lions. I mean, he play what role he played with McBride?
00:17:59:06 - 00:18:19:23
Unknown
I played with Terence Blanchard, like, so he caught a lot of that. But I think by what was his 2012 was, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think by this point, I for me, I know I was like, I wasn't surprised at all. Yeah. I think the thing with Glasper is it's like when you're if you're in that scene, he was the next big thing from the time he was a teenager, you know what I mean?
00:18:19:23 - 00:18:35:18
Unknown
Like, everybody and I actually we were at the New school, jazz contemporary music program at the same time in New York. I but, I mean, what year did you get there? I got there in 2000. Okay. That's when he got. And I think he was already there for a year. Okay. Or maybe he just. Yeah, that would have been right.
00:18:35:18 - 00:18:53:19
Unknown
But it didn't matter because he was never there. He was like on the road with Carmen, right. You know what I mean. Like or playing with Roy Hargrove or like. Yeah, he would, he would, you would know that he was in the building once every couple of months because the common area would be like erupting with laughter. Robert Glasper like, famously hilarious.
00:18:53:19 - 00:19:19:06
Unknown
He is funny, entertaining, charismatic dude. Yeah, yeah. And so you would just be walking down the upstairs hall and you would hear, like, uproarious laughter and be like, glass was here, like. And then, you know, you would see a group of young pianists, like, huddle around a rehearsal room, and it's just them looking at Robert Glasper in his like, you know, Wayne Shorter ensemble or whatever he was, he was playing it or whatever.
00:19:19:12 - 00:19:39:05
Unknown
And I was one of those who I was the European in. And you're just like, man, this is like, what is happening here? You're like, what is how? Like, how is he? He was already sort of blending these things in a straight ahead playing. Yeah. In this beautiful way. And I remember some of the teachers would even talk about like, like someone like, yeah, he did this arrangement of Blue Skies, this Irving Berlin standard.
00:19:39:07 - 00:19:57:12
Unknown
And she's like, the teacher was like, it sounded like this, like waterfall of sound that I'd never heard before. And this is like a 50 year old experience. Grizzled New York jazz pianist. You know? And I was like, yeah, 50 is right around the corner for you guys. Careful, man. Yeah. That was. But you just never heard them talk about young people like that.
00:19:57:12 - 00:20:14:14
Unknown
They were always like, you need this shed and you need it. Yeah, but they were there was like a kind of a built in respect for Robert Glasper. Even at that time, which I thought was passing and some built in to your point, Rob, like some built in, some of the hard nosed traditionalists were like very much like, no, thank you.
00:20:14:16 - 00:20:30:21
Unknown
This is not what we we do. This is and but I think that's that naturally happens. And you can, you know, Robert Glasper has talked about this. He's talked about his frustration with jazz traditionalists. Yeah. And that's kind of what you can you can see him, by the way, building in the albums. He's building up the black radio like he's.
00:20:30:22 - 00:20:46:00
Unknown
Yeah, he's bringing it. He's doing a lot with Bilal. He's starting to bring in more hip hop influences into his even his trio stuff. Yeah. And then Black radio is just like an explosion of like he he figured it out. Like he really nailed it, you know, like the. And then he tried to repeat it three times. It was what you do.
00:20:46:01 - 00:21:07:18
Unknown
That's what you do. But I think that's what that's what runs the world that the IP industry is, is everything now. Yes. But maybe to your point to Robert in terms of rocket. And it's interesting because I have a, a similar kind of connection point with Herbie Hancock, but maybe black, radio is Robert Glasper Rocket in that?
00:21:07:18 - 00:21:28:17
Unknown
Like, this was the time when a bunch of people that didn't know him, either personally or from the insider jet, you know, because we always think, like, when you're in the jazz world, like, like it doesn't matter how much you're appreciated or lauded or lionized, you know, anybody can get you right. So, like, if you're interested in Robert Glasper and he was played at the Vanguard, you can just go up and touch him afterwards.
00:21:28:17 - 00:21:44:03
Unknown
Hey, how are you doing and stuff, you know, but if you're a big R&B star or something like there's you're separated by MTV or BDS or whatever. And so I think for everybody else that hadn't touched him at some point on the streets of New York or the clubs, this was the time when it was like, and really much later.
00:21:44:03 - 00:22:03:17
Unknown
I mean, this all leads up to like, you know, black Radio three just a couple of years ago when he wins, you know, for the best R&B record of the year. And Chris Brown is like, who the fuck is this guy famously like, but in great Robert 30 years later, after his first record or when Robert Glasper fashion, he makes a killing t shirt that says, who the fuck is Robert Glasper?
00:22:03:17 - 00:22:20:19
Unknown
And like, sells out. Yeah, now everybody knows. But I mean, that's kind of like so I mean, I think this was the first step to like a lot of people, 2012 ish early, a lot of people being like still maybe a little bit like, oh, that's a great Erica Badu track, or there's a Layla Hathaway thing on there or whatever.
00:22:20:21 - 00:22:35:09
Unknown
It's like it's this guy producing, I mean, know who's who. That's in kind of R&B and hip hop and stuff, is really worried about some little killing, little piano lines coming in and out here and there and what the chords are. Nobody cares about that. You know, they might like it, but they're like, oh, that's Erica Badu.
00:22:35:11 - 00:22:56:22
Unknown
So maybe let's talk a little bit about the song itself and, and Afro Blue. So, you know, one of the great things about this, like I said, is like his ability to look forward and backward at the same time. And it's interesting because on this album are songs like Smells Like Teen Spirit, right. Like a song that at the time wasn't I mean, it was a classic already, but it's it's certainly contemporary.
00:22:56:22 - 00:23:21:02
Unknown
You would put it on a jazz album necessarily, right? Conveniently stuck is the like the last track to. Yeah, I was going to say it being on the last track seems significant to me. It's like a weird downer ending, you know, and putting Smells Like Teen Spirit on a record called Black Radio feels very pointed. Yes, to me, you know, and it it I want to say it doesn't quite fit on the record.
00:23:21:02 - 00:23:45:05
Unknown
It doesn't have the same sort of warmth and the loveliness of much of the rest of the record. Right. But maybe there's more connection there than I'm willing to admit. But yeah, It Smells Like Teen Spirit is the last track on this record. Really strikes me every time I listen to it. It's pretty haunting. It is Casey Benjamin here on the I love Casey on this, the band for the Robert Glasper Experiment.
00:23:45:05 - 00:24:06:13
Unknown
Casey Benjamin. Yeah. Reeds, flute, saxophone, vocoder, keys as well. Derek Hodge on the bass and Chris Dave on the drums, who we'll talk about. Though don't be bringing it.
00:24:06:15 - 00:24:31:13
Unknown
In over there. Y'all know, the other day when. No no no no no no no. What is the thing in the background there. The bass drum. That's the kick drum. Yeah, that's Chris dance. You can't just. Da da da da da da da da. Yeah. That's single. Like most drummers without tap double pedals. I'm almost sure that single.
00:24:31:13 - 00:24:54:01
Unknown
I never seen him with it. It's menacing when that bass drum. Yeah. That's it is. It really is. And I mean obviously intentionally. And the mix of it is I think like, I think if you took away just the bass drum, which we probably could, maybe we'll do that in the the bonus episode. But I mean it's like that would be like just what, what Glasper is playing and how Casey is doing the vocoder.
00:24:54:04 - 00:25:18:03
Unknown
It's so like poignant and sweet and kind of like, you know, just ethereal. But that bass drum just just makes it, like, menacing and like you say, Robert, I always thought this was weird at the end of that album. It's one of my favorite tracks on here. It's one of the better tracks on here. Yeah, but I but I think to end it, there's definitely like a statement and maybe this thing of like a jazz musician, even though this is definitely I wouldn't say this is a jazz record.
00:25:18:05 - 00:25:34:06
Unknown
If you had to classify it. You love classifications, don't you? That's my favorite thing. I love genre, but that it's that's kind of a jazz, like in jazz, we don't worry as much about like, the first side and the second side or what what's the single going to be? But this is like there's several singles on this and like that.
00:25:34:06 - 00:26:03:06
Unknown
But but I mean, to put this at the end is definitely a statement from. Yeah, I wonder I wonder about that if it's like, you know, because there's we mentioned that he's steeped in Radiohead and yeah, it's almost a Radiohead move, right? To put this like anti-climax, you know, like this sort of like the darkest track on the album, just like, I mean, I guess if it were a little bit more spacey, it would be kind of more of a Radiohead move, but it is a little more spacey than some of the other stuff.
00:26:03:06 - 00:26:24:11
Unknown
It's not as like you said, it's not as beautiful. Or maybe it's like white radio there's actually taking back. Or maybe he's making the statement like, white radio is coming for you. But yeah, the kick drum is crazy. Yeah. Insane. Yeah, yeah. We should talk about Chris. Dave eventually, but I want to. I do want to go into the song Afro Blue itself.
00:26:24:11 - 00:26:45:00
Unknown
So it's it's, by, Cuban musician Mongo Santamaria, written in 1959, which is interesting lyrics by Oscar Brown. Oh, this is the original. This is the original. This is great.
00:26:45:02 - 00:26:54:02
Unknown
Oh.
00:26:54:04 - 00:27:14:04
Unknown
Oh, this is a calculator, I think. Yeah. So, yeah.
00:27:14:06 - 00:27:48:10
Unknown
So that's the original. I think most hardcore jazz fans probably know it more from this. Oh, like I, but this John Coltrane, McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison and Elvin Jones live. Who will be super duper. One of the most out of tune pianos killing ass solos right here. I mean, not one note on that damn piano is in tune.
00:27:48:10 - 00:28:05:05
Unknown
And McCoy is just. That's a killing soul. That's like a bird like. Shout out to the Birdland management for not tuning the damn damn. Sorry. There's been a ton of, You mentioned the lyrics by Oscar Brown, written not too long after the tune itself was written. This is a great version from friend of the show, Diane Reeves.
00:28:05:06 - 00:28:22:15
Unknown
Oh, yeah. Dream of a bummer. So let's jump back. But I hear a hand stomp all the wrong.
00:28:22:17 - 00:28:50:02
Unknown
You're looking for beautiful girl dancing with you. I am making the world. She's up to me. You ever play that one, Peter? Yeah, yeah, a couple times. So that leads us to where, you know, Robert Glasper has some. I mean, like, all great jazz musicians like you investigate, a lot of times the tunes that you're going to add to your repertoire, the different versions.
00:28:50:02 - 00:29:11:00
Unknown
I'm sure he grew up listening to several of these versions. There's a great Teddy Bridgewater version from the 70s as well. Roberta Flack on Roberta Flack on first, a great version. And so that takes us to him and it's I mean, it's this is like a straight up jazz standard for sure. That's what I'm saying is, like, of all the songs on this album, originals or covers like this is like in the real book.
00:29:11:00 - 00:29:28:04
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. This was like an instant jazz standard from 1959. So here's the version that we're talking about in 1959. So I'm saying, the version from Black Radio 2012.
00:29:28:06 - 00:29:51:13
Unknown
What? A dream all but let my soul is found. It's incredible. Casey. Bet. Kill it on the I hear it trill on the drums.
00:29:51:15 - 00:30:01:11
Unknown
Chase up the night, Coco. You.
00:30:01:13 - 00:30:11:07
Unknown
Which is the night. And follow.
00:30:11:09 - 00:30:21:06
Unknown
And you got you. Keep it. Go!
00:30:21:07 - 00:30:31:00
Unknown
Dancing jive anywhere.
00:30:31:02 - 00:30:50:22
Unknown
Smash the crab symbol right there. Go, go. You you. Won't be taken out. And I'll blow you up to.
00:30:51:00 - 00:31:20:13
Unknown
It's the bridge. Oh, should we listen to the bridge? Sweet place got great. Got us. Yeah. This way. You slip away to to this place. She's on the line. Go! Oh, you move a little. That's a lobby move for me. I mean, unbelievable. Yeah. So great arrangement. Great. You know, this is what's unusual about this is, is they the element that isn't there?
00:31:20:13 - 00:31:38:13
Unknown
Like, there's so many elements from the original. The flute, different line, but like the sound of of, like the timbre of that. But the main thing is, like, almost all of the three is gone, and it's replaced by this groove from, you know, Chris, Dave and it really everybody. Derek Hodge I mean, they're they're all killing it on here but it's primitive.
00:31:38:13 - 00:32:02:16
Unknown
They're like that. And yeah, it's not a three anymore. It's two. It's doomsday. They wait it's played again. It's in four. Right. I don't go do. Yeah, yeah, it's a four. But then he throws in a little bit of like, like you said when he crashed and he does it. I don't know if it's every four bars or every eight bars done gang.
00:32:02:21 - 00:32:19:19
Unknown
And that's really going back to that New Orleans groove, what they call the big four, which come coming through there. So there's some cool stuff with that. He's got some incredible bass drum patterns that are not nearly as menacing as, as the Nirvana tune, for sure. Yeah. So the original and how all of the arrangements we've heard so far, I'd like to.
00:32:19:19 - 00:32:40:12
Unknown
Elvin. Telepath. Yeah. Thank you. Want to. And not just that the harmony is different to you know, he puts. It's incredible when we say it might even say Glasper ish. Glasper ask Glasper glass B, glass b.
00:32:40:14 - 00:33:06:19
Unknown
Double down by five. Oh do. Yeah, baby don't do. Don't. Don't worry. Rob. We're gonna edit all this part out. Oh, yeah. This is great. Incredible. Can't do this stuff. So I'm living vicariously through you all. Incredible rihan. But I wonder if we could spend just a couple minutes on Erica Badu. Yeah. And how, seamlessly. She just, like, slips into this song.
00:33:06:21 - 00:33:31:08
Unknown
Yeah. Like we said, this is a classic jazz standard, and she crushes. Yeah. You were talking about how some people might have heard it as an Erica Badu song. It definitely would fit on an Erica Badu album. Yes, definitely. Consider with what she was doing. You know, I think her first record, botulism, I think, was 1997. Yeah. And she's sort of introduced to the world as neo soul.
00:33:31:08 - 00:33:54:21
Unknown
Yeah. You know, and that's, that's her manager's coinage. Like her manager, I forget his name, but he, he sort of brings Erica Badu and D'Angelo into the conversation at the same time. And it sort of brands them, markets them as neo soul. And that's, I think, useful to both, you know, Erica and D'Angelo initially, but then they're going to spend the rest of their careers pushing against that.
00:33:55:02 - 00:34:16:10
Unknown
Yeah, right. It's very clear from the onset that Erica Badu will not be satisfied with being pigeonholed as one thing. You know, I think she puts out a live album the same year. You know, she puts out two albums in 1997, incredible live album where she's already it's incredible. I wrote on that. Yeah, yeah. It's incredible. Like one of the best live performers of all time, for sure.
00:34:16:12 - 00:34:37:10
Unknown
And so her career I was looking, you know, it's she puts out a record intermittently, you know, it's 4 or 5 years at this point between records. You know, she had put out a record in 2010 called New America Part two, return of the Ark, and that like, had some big hits on it. This song, windows Seat was a big hit.
00:34:37:12 - 00:34:58:12
Unknown
You know, she's very much in the conversation, but she's known as, you know, as genre disruptor, as someone, you know, who's a one of one, you know, who makes whatever kind of music she makes with whoever she wants to make it with. You know, who experiments, you know, who will move into rock, you know, R&B, jazz, whatever she wants to do, she's going to do it.
00:34:58:12 - 00:35:16:21
Unknown
You know, I think there's something to the fact that she was introduced to the world is a very specific new genre. Yeah. You know, that really helped her at the onset, but it also helped her giving her something, you know, to reject tacitly for the rest of her career. Like, I'm going to do whatever I want, including this.
00:35:16:21 - 00:35:37:17
Unknown
And that's why Afro blues, you sound so natural doing it. And again, it would fit perfectly on any of her own records. Yeah. And I think what's interesting is at this by this point. So this is 2012. And like you talk about 97, the kind of late late 90s, you know, Electric Lady soul queries that whole period that she was so involved with D'Angelo.
00:35:37:19 - 00:35:54:07
Unknown
You know, you know, J Dilla. We got to talk about Dilla dealers coming and also Roy Hargrove can actually Hargrove and Roy and Erica Badu, I believe, went to the I know they went to the same high school. I think they were there at the same time. You know, Norah Jones, a bunch of great musicians around that time.
00:35:54:09 - 00:36:12:17
Unknown
But this idea of, as you said, I didn't know that about her manager with the coining the term neo soul. It makes sense, though. It's always the manager. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's all but it's also like, it's it's the music and the esthetic. There was definitely an aunt. Like an aunt, not anti R&B, but I like this is not the R&B of the 90s.
00:36:12:17 - 00:36:30:13
Unknown
You know what I mean? Not Jodeci. This is not Jodeci, even though I'm looking forward to our Jodeci episode. Some love that stuff. And and even going forward in the Jodeci. Yes. And like, you know, singers, like great singers like Whitney Houston and stuff that obviously been around since the 80s. But like that, this is a new kind of a thing.
00:36:30:13 - 00:36:49:11
Unknown
I remember when I, when I first heard about it like mid 90s, and it might have been from Roy, actually, now that I'm remembering, but I remember him talking about her, but somebody else was like they almost were saying, like, she's the new Billie Holiday. That might have come from his manager too. That's what everyone said. Yeah, yeah, that's I remember when I first heard her, I was like, yeah.
00:36:49:11 - 00:37:06:04
Unknown
And I was kind of like, because I was more like conservative jazz or at that time I'm like, that's not Billie Holiday, you know, whatever. But I was also like, damn, that's she's good. Yeah, but it was something else. And I think it was useful having that term or something to separate it out from, because it was almost like the static and the sound.
00:37:06:04 - 00:37:38:18
Unknown
It was closer to what a lot of hip hop was doing at that time. Especially like Tribal Quest, De La Soul, maybe that kind of a sound, an esthetic which ultimately led up to something that would make some connections with with 2012 Afro Blue, for sure. I mean, I don't mean to get back on my soapbox about genres again, but they're always, you know, descriptive and musicians as they're making stuff as they're they're melting into each other as they're sort of stirring the pot of all the music that they've ingested from their childhood on don't give a shit about a genre and aren't playing in a genre.
00:37:38:18 - 00:37:59:13
Unknown
And yeah, most of the especially the greats are being like, the great thing about Erykah Badu is she's the most her that she could be like. It's so original and she's so perfectly comfortable in her body and her skin, in her sound, in her intellect, and you can feel it as an audience member. You just feel taken care of and into this person's whole world.
00:37:59:13 - 00:38:20:11
Unknown
And same thing with Robert Glasper. You feel like on black radio, like I am, I am visiting this person's soul. You know what I mean? Like, I'm part of this person's world for a second, and that's the most beautiful art that can be made. And I think oftentimes we try to put categories on things to try to make sense of them later, but it's not helpful if you're making it.
00:38:20:11 - 00:38:38:13
Unknown
You know what I mean? Off my soapbox. Right. That's it. I mean, I agree 72% I know. So there you go. That's up from 65. So I'll take it. Cool. All right. So what else do we want to look at in terms of can we just talk about Casey Benjamin for just a second? Oh man. You know incredible.
00:38:38:14 - 00:38:58:02
Unknown
All right I know we lost him way, way, way too early. I believe he was about, the same age as Glasper. Incredible spirit. Yeah. Incredible human being. Incredible. Like, for those that didn't know him. And a lot of people didn't know him. He's from New York. He's from Queens. One of the sweetest, smartest. Just. I got a chance.
00:38:58:02 - 00:39:14:19
Unknown
I didn't know him well, but I got a chance to teach with him for two weeks. Just a couple, like a couple of years before he passed us a few years ago, with. With the Betty Carter, Institute at the Kennedy Center, for two weeks. But it was a very intense experience because we're all, you know, Jason Moran, we were all there together.
00:39:14:21 - 00:39:35:12
Unknown
But he he was very influenced by Betty Carter because he came up in the very first program. He's got a lot of incredible jazz street cred, jazz police, crack jazz intelligentsia. But, you know, he's just he's just one of those New Yorkers that just has that advantage of coming up at a time with so much music, not just on the radio, not just on records, but in the streets and in the in the city.
00:39:35:14 - 00:39:51:07
Unknown
You know, he really is just an incredible guy. And I think his this record without him, although I think for most people that kind of come to it through the hits and stuff, my might think of it as kind of window dressing and accouterments. I don't think this record is what it is. Or and the experiment isn't without Casey.
00:39:51:07 - 00:40:09:07
Unknown
Yeah, experiment with Casey. Especially live too. Yeah. Unbelievable. Like it's a failed experiment without him, but that that he he's magical. He's magical on stage, and he's he's magical. All of this record, I'm wondering to if maybe we can spend a couple of minutes talking about J Dilla, who's not on this album but is on this album in a lot of ways.
00:40:09:07 - 00:40:30:09
Unknown
There's so many records that not all, but he's on. Yeah. One of the most copied artists, one of the most original sounds. Yeah. Of the past 40 years, probably. Yeah, yeah. Rob, what's, what's your relationship with the Dilla beat, like, as a as a fan, I, I have here this the great book Dan Charnas wrote. It's called Dilla Time.
00:40:30:09 - 00:40:50:19
Unknown
It's sort of a biography of J Dilla, but also it's it gets into the musicological aspect, like they're actually like graphs in this book that try and explain what the Dilla beat is and what it means for a beat to be quant is a quantized. Yeah, it's not a word versus not quantized. It's a dirty word. Yes, it's a word.
00:40:51:01 - 00:41:17:16
Unknown
It's a yeah, it feels like it's the way J Dilla plays it. You know, it feels creates it. It feels like a to off the rhythm feels a little unsteady. Yeah. You know it feels human you know and and it's. That became his signature. And you're absolutely right. You know this this book just talks about how all the music hip hop for the next 20 years since, you know, he first came up, you know, first with Slum Village in Detroit.
00:41:17:16 - 00:41:39:15
Unknown
He started working with A Tribe Called Quest. He started working with D'Angelo, you know, as as he becomes, you know, one of the real forces in pushing hip hop forward, you know, all rap music for the last 20 years, to some degree, you know, sounds a little like him, you know, if only in spirit, in the sense of freedom and the sense of just like fucking with things.
00:41:39:15 - 00:41:58:08
Unknown
Yeah. You know, and making it your own. I think there are people like that who can inspire you, even if they don't do what you do, but they see you like you're always saying. With Erica Badu just so herself and so comfortable in herself and just, you know, I'm undaunted, you know, by any expectations of her. I think that is a huge effect on you.
00:41:58:09 - 00:42:31:18
Unknown
You know, even if you're not trying to sound like that person, just to see that somebody can be that way. Yes, absolutely. This is a beat that Robert Glasper has talked about as being influential. This is from a Busta Rhymes album. 1996, I think the coming this is still shining. And is a J Dilla track.
00:42:31:20 - 00:42:51:07
Unknown
Yeah. And that's it. But you can hear this, this sort of wobble in the hi hat. Yeah. I mean, I had the kick in the snare. It's not quantized. It's oftentimes he would play live.
00:42:51:09 - 00:43:11:13
Unknown
So good. And I mean, if you go back when it comes out with Jill, I too I've always liked the things that aren't there. Like when he'll missing a beat or pulls the bass drum out or the snare or something. It's so like for the architecture of the groove. So it's like, but you can hear it directly. So it's fun.
00:43:11:15 - 00:43:34:14
Unknown
You know, can I hear I can listen to what Chris Davis playing on the drums sounds like. He has a tambourine on the high end. Yeah, maybe there's that backing it's a big for. And I mean, if you're going to do a delay beat. So drummer Chris Dave who's on black radio and it's been a part of I think Robert Glasper is biggest successful.
00:43:34:17 - 00:44:04:12
Unknown
Yeah. Recordings and and bands is the person for it. Like. Yeah. Is like the greatest embodiment human embodiment of what J Dilla I think could do in the studio. Chris Dave can just do so seamlessly live, and it's his own thing, too. It's not just like a Dilla rip off, like he's an insanely creative musician, an incredible artist in his own right, and super influential on this generation.
00:44:04:13 - 00:44:27:09
Unknown
Another Houston guy, it's, hugely. Is that right? Yeah. He's from Houston, too, I think. Hugely influential on drummers, of this generation, maybe more so than any. I mean, we think about, like, jazz drummers and, you know, like Brian Blade, Greg Hutchinson, you know, 100% and then go back, you know, Tony Williams, of course.
00:44:27:09 - 00:44:54:12
Unknown
But I mean, Chris, Dave, in terms of actual things that people play. Yeah, huge. Every older millennial and Gen Z drummer has a has his feet in their pockets. Yeah. That's the exact generation where it's like yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's a little bit of of Chris Dave solo here. From Afro Blue.
00:44:54:14 - 00:45:04:04
Unknown
Throw a little terracotta there.
00:45:04:06 - 00:45:27:11
Unknown
Is this from the outro? Because the outro is my favorite part of it. This is the first verse we're listening to this night. Oh, okay. All right. Stolen stem Adam and snuck into this. Let's go. I was gonna ask how you get this story. If it's if it is contraband, it's because it's contraband. Let's go to the outro a little bit.
00:45:27:13 - 00:45:41:12
Unknown
Yeah. Now, Joe's with the flute behind it. Yeah. And I, it's the outro is really like 90s.
00:45:41:13 - 00:46:01:13
Unknown
Yeah. That's there's almost like a whole nother, you know. Yeah. There's a couple tracks like that. I think, the Nirvana two, it's got like a big extended, you know, out, you know, vamp. It's really like a vamp. Right. While we're on some stems, I just want to listen to a little bit of Miss Badu. Yeah.
00:46:01:15 - 00:46:12:11
Unknown
From dream of the living. My soul is far.
00:46:12:13 - 00:46:32:00
Unknown
Here ahead. Stroke on the drums. Isn't that great? Yeah. And I mean, like, this is, you know, we talk about. It was interesting. You play the John Coltrane coming in with the melody that live at Birdland, mad Bone Dry. Nothing on the saxophone. Yeah. And then,
00:46:32:02 - 00:46:47:11
Unknown
Like, for people that are always like, what do you mean effects or IQ that's dry, especially the saxophone, right. Yeah. I think that's gotta that's got a thick red theater curtain behind it. Yeah, exactly. But the Erica Badu has a lot of verve, a lot of I don't think there's any layering on there. It's just a lot of effects.
00:46:47:17 - 00:47:07:14
Unknown
So that that's kind of where that come. You can hear that when when you hear her sing. This is an incredibly engineered record like the production on this record is is I think we're always like like that's such a big part of the success, I think of this track for sure. Yeah. And the influence of this track especially, you know, we were just talking about the J Dilla beats and how influential they are.
00:47:07:14 - 00:47:30:18
Unknown
But I think for every like I said, every musician of a certain age, they can pull out this groove. This is a fundamental groove of a generation. And I think black radio is a big, big part of that for sure. Yeah. Rob, any closing favorite song on this record is Afro Blue my favorite song on this record? Oh, he's pushing this into some ringer.
00:47:30:20 - 00:47:52:23
Unknown
Categories here, I like it, I like it, I like this a ringer move, I guess it is. What's the apex now? That's okay. Good. Let's go, let's go there I think I let me on the rewatchable either. I think this is the best track on this album and okay, I, this is a part of every playlist that's anywhere near this sort of era.
00:47:53:01 - 00:48:15:02
Unknown
This Afro blue makes it on there for me because I think it's just like so it's so captures the moment of the early 20 tens. And this time, yeah, I think it's great. I would say if I had to the best track, my favorite, the Layla Hathaway Shaadi that's that's what I was going to say. That's kind of like I love that track.
00:48:15:02 - 00:48:41:00
Unknown
Say sha de sha sha. They say cha cha cha cha day is, the cherished today alcoholic beverage. Oh, sha sha sha today. Yeah. Sha tin man. Here's another. Here's another question. The today. Exactly. I'm blanked on that. Is this your favorite Robert Glasper album? I love I like this record. Is this my favorite or the what was the first record with the main voyage?
00:48:41:00 - 00:49:03:13
Unknown
The, moods. Moods. That's a great one. Oh, that was the second, actually. Wasn't that was that his first? I think the mood was first. That was first. Okay. But I also like the third. I don't remember as well. Black radio two. Black radio three. The last one, black radio. Things are back to me like that would be a close second to this one in terms of,
00:49:03:15 - 00:49:19:18
Unknown
But this is great. I mean, this is classic, like, this is the kind of thing that had artists like Glasper. I think can, like, really not only hang their hat on, but also become very bitter and, and a drunkard later in life to be like, I never got back to that level, you know what I mean? Which is a great thing.
00:49:19:18 - 00:49:35:03
Unknown
I mean, like how many of us get to say that? Like, that's such a cool. I'm gonna totally tease him next time I see him. Actually, I have a well, hopefully he doesn't hear this part because I want it to be. I have this plan. I want know he's not listening. I want to do an interview with Glasper where I'm just like like just teasing him on everything.
00:49:35:03 - 00:49:50:22
Unknown
I was like, so Black Radio one was great. That was really creative, so I decided to recreate it. I like the next title, Black Radio two. Great. Then you want to do it again? Black radio three. I see. Where you going with it, man? If it works, it works. New the fast and the furious. Like two black, two radio.
00:49:50:23 - 00:50:10:07
Unknown
I don't like you. I like radio three call, Tokyo Drift, etc. I do it all in the 2030s. I do want to give a shout out to the three albums that lead up to this that you can hear the ramping up a little bit, which is canvas in my element and double booked, double booked the blue. Now that's that's a killer record.
00:50:10:08 - 00:50:28:01
Unknown
The Blue Note albums that the string of blue notes that that's what I was doing up to this are all so killin so so good and definitely worth checking out here. Checking out black radio. I really dig in my element. That's the third one I think is from 2007. That's the one with the maiden voyage. Everything in its right place.
00:50:28:01 - 00:50:49:03
Unknown
That's right. Then it's also it also has a track called J Dilla. Lude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I think J Dilla actually appears like a voice, you know, male or an answering machine or whatever it was. The terminology at the time, like this is where I think the Dilla really starts to creep in for him. It's, I think the J Dilla lude track is like a bunch of different Dilla beats.
00:50:49:03 - 00:51:08:23
Unknown
The what I pulled out immediately was Stakes is High, the De La Soul song. But like this. This is a really cool record for me. And going all the way back to like, Brad Mehldau or whatever, like I think In My Element is a record that can get you from being a Radiohead fan to being a jazz fan or vice versa.
00:51:09:02 - 00:51:30:21
Unknown
Right? It's a great call. Run at that will get you from one place to the other. Great, great call. I know there's a little bit about J Dilla to J Dilla live in, you know me. So, she wants to do that, man. I need to join on the album with the trio, in the back then, you know, if you get it, I mean, I.
00:51:30:21 - 00:51:42:21
Unknown
Come on, I saw Detroit, right? When the legend himself is the ground.
00:51:42:23 - 00:52:02:12
Unknown
And I was just looking, I couldn't remember. J Dilla passed in 2006. Yeah. You know, J Dilla, who was. And so this was right after, you know, this also functions as a as a tribute, as as a eulogy and as a sort of not explicitly, but sort of carrying on the legacy. Now, as Robert Glasper has gone on to do.
00:52:02:13 - 00:52:21:08
Unknown
It's it's just a really lovely thing. Yeah. Well, guys, this has been a blast. Rob, thank you for joining us today. Yeah, of course I've been through it. I'll come back any time. Yeah. Thank you. Let's do next time when we when you saying we're collaborating with Rob on this episode I was excited. So this was a different Rob than I was expecting, but I'm.
00:52:21:10 - 00:55:04:03
Unknown
Yeah, this turned out this turned out great here. The inferior Rob. We were born the same year. And that's where you and Rob and that's about where it stops the connections between us, unfortunately, where? Up back you up. Until next time. You'll hear.
00:55:04:05 - 00:56:35:19
Unknown
From.
00:56:35:21 - 00:56:42:11
Unknown
Us.