The Peter Martin x Strong Songs Interview

What's up everybody?

Peter Martin here.

Welcome to the You'll Hear It podcast.

We have a very special deluxe
exclusive audio only version.

This week I had the honor and privilege of
being a guest on Kirk Hamilton's wonderful

strong songs podcast a couple weeks
back, and he was generous enough to share

it, the episode with us, and we thought
you guys might get a kick out of it.

If you hadn't heard Kirk's wonderful
podcast, you should go check that out.

Strong songs, we'll have a link to that.

But this is the episode in its entirety.

We're talking nineties
jazz, two thousands jazz.

He took me back to some really fun
record dates and performances I did back

in the day, all the way up till today.

We just nerd it out as we do.

I hope you enjoy it.

Hello everyone.

Kirk here.

Still hard at work on season
eight of strong songs.

And in the interim, I have been
running interview episodes like

the one that you are about to hear.

This one is with someone who will be
familiar to some of you jazz pianist.

Peter Martin is no stranger to
the world of music podcasting,

his own music podcast.

You'll Hear It, which he
co-hosts with fellow pianist.

Adam Maness is a great listen and I was
actually a guest earlier this year.

Talking with them both
about Tower of Power.

I ran that episode in this
feed a little while back, so

some of you probably heard it.

The folks at Open Studio Peter's
online jazz education outfit reached

out to see if I might wanna have
Peter on strong songs as a guest.

And I thought, Hey, it's not every day
you get to talk with someone who played

on some of your favorite jazz records
of the nineties or really of all time.

Peter is the real deal as jazz players go.

He spent the nineties and two thousands
working as a side man with artists

like Betty Carter, Dianne Reeves,
Roy Hargrove, and Joshua Redmond.

He's also just a killing player.

You'll hear a lot of his.

playing in this episode.

He is man, the guy can play.

He's also of course, led his own groups.

You're hearing a track right now
from a recent record of his called

Generation S, which he recorded over
the course of a single recording

session at the open studio space in St.

Louis.

Peter and I talked about a bunch of
interesting stuff, his musical background,

what it was like to come up learning the
Suzuki method, how the nineties jazz scene

differed from the scene of today, and
some of the many players who influenced

him as a young pianist from Wynton
Marsalis to Kenny Kirkland and many more.

And I do just wanna note, we had some
issues with Peter's audio file that

required some creative fixes in the edit.

Hopefully you won't notice too much of
it, but if you hear any weird levels or

audio issues, that is what that's about.

It was a great conversation
filled with a ton of great music.

I really hope you enjoy it.

So without further ado, here
is my conversation with.

Peter Martin.

Peter Martin, welcome to Strong Songs.

Oh, what's up Kirk?

Thanks for having me.

Great to be here.

Yeah, man, I'm so happy to have you here.

It is not every day that we have a player
of your caliber on the show, and I'm

hopeful that you can impart some of your
chops to our listeners through osmosis.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you.

I'll try not to overdo it so as to run.

True music lovers away of
which I'm a true music.

I'm not just a, a player.

It's like the old hair thing, you know?

I'm an, i, I love music and I know
sometimes as jazz players we can

overanalyze and and nerd out, which
is part of the fun too, though.

We've done that a little bit
together before, so No, it's true.

It is.

It's kind of a, um, I'm
noticing that more these days.

I think maybe it's because of the
work that I do, and of course you

guys' show as well, you'll hear it.

Um, I, there is a kind of a new strain
of music appreciation from people who

could be snobs, who have the musical
training maybe to be very snobbish about

what they listen to and who are instead
dedicating their knowledge to kind of

explaining other like non jazz music and
just finding the jazz in everything since

so much music, you know, has elements of
jazz or has derived from jazz in some way.

Yeah.

I'm starting to realize that there's way
more people that are interested in, in.

Jazzy things or jazzy elements mm-hmm.

Or parts of jazz than
actual hardcore jazz.

I mean, I think when people are exposed
to it and can kind of come to it in

an organic way through a love of a,
an album and you do such a great job

of, you know, breaking things down.

I remember you're so what, uh, episode?

I think that was the first
time I became aware of you.

It's such a interesting
place to come at this music.

And then of course it becomes this not a
rabbit hole, like about 3000 rabbit holes

that are all interconnected and stuff.

Uhhuh.

Um, but it's, yeah, I mean, I think
jazz, if anything, it's influenced

on so many other forms of music and
the little parts that have been taken

and borrowed and thrown around is, is
really one of the most interesting.

Aspects of the music for sure.

It's something that, you know, it goes
across sampling and it goes across

pop music and fusion and into, I mean,
just there are so many groups now I,

all these new, you know, young artists
that I listen to who are insane jazz

musicians, but are making music that
I don't think I would like categorize

as jazz, or certainly isn't, you know,
hard bop, adjacent acoustic jazz, uh,

but has so much jazz, harmony and so
much going on that it is very fun to

kind of tease that out for people and
show them the links in the chain since.

The links in the, like,
that's the whole thing, right?

That's kind of what makes American music
so fascinating and always has going back

to, you know, the, the 19th century.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Well, let's talk a little bit about your
story about the links in Peter Martin's

chains since I think some listeners, uh,
won't know, you know, won't know you.

You, you are of course a brilliant
player and worked as a sideman for

many jazz luminaries, and I would argue
are a jazz luminary in your own right.

But also being a jazz luminary
is still being a jazz luminary.

Jazz is a, is a little more
niche and, um, some people won't

have, have heard your stories.

So how about you?

Give listeners a little breakdown,
just how did you get your start?

When did you first start playing piano?

So I was playing, I, I come
from a very musical family.

Uh, both my parents, uh, were and actually
still are, uh, professional musicians.

Oh, nice.

What do they play?

Like what, what are your Well,
they dad and mom instruments,

well they musicians primarily.

My mom plays violin and my dad plays
viola, but he also plays piano and organ.

And he's a super talented guy.

Really my kind of just musical mentor
in, in addition to my father, you

know, but I mean Right, right, right.

Really just I think a lot of, and my
mom as well, she was, she was, she's

kind of semi-retired now, but she
was, uh, really my first teacher.

'cause I started on violin.

She was a Suzuki teacher.

Um, and even before I was in
school, she'd kind of bring me along

when she was teaching other kids
and sort of stuck a violin in my

hand, partly just to be babysat.

Um, but that was really my first.

Instrument.

And then my older sister was
playing piano, so I saw that and

my dad played piano, and actually
my mom played piano too, so there

was a lot of music in the house.

I was, I mean, I was born in 1970,
so it was kind of coming up in

the seventies and early eighties.

It was a, it was kind of a, it was a
great time, like to be bored and then have

to find something to occupy your time.

You know what I mean?

It's like, yeah.

Oh yeah, sure.

Uh, and so I love music and heard
a lot of great music, so that was

kind of how I occupied myself.

Like the piano was as much
just sort of this like machine

or video game or, or mm-hmm.

It was just something that made
noise and I could touch and sit at

and, you know, play around with.

And then, um, so, so there wasn't
a lot of distractions, you know?

Right.

Um, I mean, there was like.

Four hours straight of
cartoons on Saturday morning

for us to rot our brain on.

But that was a very specialized time.

Right.

There was no Roblox, it was
a pretty different time.

Although think he watched Hee-Haw
every single night, like while my

mom was, you know, making dinner.

Yeah, definitely a different time.

Yeah.

But I heard music and I really
came up playing, I guess, you

know, kind of classical music.

Uh, I mean, not when I was two and
three in first playing, but I, well,

I, I did learn in the Suzuki method,
which I think is a, it's a really

important part of my story and a number
of jazz musicians more than you would

think that came up with this method.

Really.

Could Could you explain what the
Suzuki method is for listeners?

I don't think I've ever
talked about it on the show.

Yeah.

Is this a four hour podcast?

'cause we can do that.

Yeah.

No, this will be act one.

Yeah.

Uh, Suzuki is a, Che Suzuki was a Japanese
violinist, uh, that I think came up out,

I mean, I wanna say like the fifties and
sixties, but it really came to the US

like right around 19 se early seventies.

Uh, and in fact, my mother was one
of the, one of the first American

teachers that kind of imported this.

And she went over and studied
with Suzuki, uh, later on, like

in the early eighties in Japan.

Oh, wow.

And knew him.

But he wrote this wonderful book
called, he wrote a bunch of books, but

he wrote one called Nurtured by Love.

That's all about like learning
music, that same way we learn.

Uh, our first language, what,
what they call the mother tongue.

So it's like you typically learn
that from a parent or a caregiver,

grandparent, whoever is raising you,
you learn English or Japanese what,

whatever your mother tongue, your first
language, and you learn it at such a

young age, you're not learning it by.

Reading it, obviously you're
just imitating the person that's

giving you hopefully love and
attention and, and mm-hmm.

Protection in the world and
that's your communication device.

So it's kind of a method that's based
around learning music in the same way.

So they start very young in
Suzuki, sometimes even as young

as two and three years old.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and you don't learn reading
music, you don't learn theory,

anything you just learn.

And it started on violin, but
it's been ported to the piano.

Yeah.

And cello and flute and
a bunch of instruments.

Uh, but it's just this great
thing of learning by ear.

And so it, I think it really helped me
years later when I got into jazz and

different kinds of improvised music
and trying to learn things by ear.

'cause I had that tradition of learning
stuff by ear sort of built into me.

I did learn to read music.

Fairly young, which was
atypical for, uh, Suzuki.

'cause I was doing more like
traditional piano, but on the

violin I always played by ear.

And yeah, that, that was
such a cheat code for me.

Uh, in, in kind of a similar way to
some like Gospel Church musicians

coming up where they, they, they learn.

In the church by listening and then
trial by fire and imitation and

mentorship and, you know, getting
looked at bad by the church elders.

If you're messing up a cord, but
they're not learning, there's no charts.

You know what I mean?

Right, right.

And so it's, if you think about learning
any foreign language, it's, it's a

very interesting and organic way.

It, especially if you're doing it at
a young age, it's a great entry point.

Yeah.

It's so funny, I think of the Suzuki
method from my own experience with

it as just something, I bought a
Suzuki method book for piano uhhuh.

'cause I am a middling pianist.

You know, I, I learned in school
and, uh, you know, took jazz piano,

but I was studying saxophone.

Yeah.

And, and wish I had
taken it more seriously.

And then later in life was like,
okay, I'm gonna finally start to get

my piano technique together and got a
Suzuki book, which is, it sounds like.

Not actually really, uh, true to the
core of the Suzuki method, which is

more about having a teacher, having a
mentor, and in fact the really original

way, and it's still done like this.

In fact, we did it with our kids
and which was a great experience

to kinda have that next generation.

Yeah.

But, but the teacher, the first
teacher is actually the parent.

So when you go to a like authentic
Suzuki method teacher, the parent.

Learns first, sometimes for months.

And the, the, this, the kid really watches
the parent learning the instrument.

And, and in fact, when we did
it, my wife did it because I

already knew how to play violin.

Like for the kids to be able to
see the parents struggle and learn

something that's a part of the process.

And they're usually too young.

And then they are, are getting, you know,
amped up to like, I wanna get my own viol.

I wanna try this.

And you start with a little box and
like a chopstick instead of a string.

It's a whole thing.

It's a little, it's a little bit
cultish to tell you the truth, but

in a really, I think, fantastic way.

I mean, Suzuki, like the authentic thing
is a very particular thing, but it's,

it's had amazing results most importantly.

That's so interesting, the idea that
watching your parents struggle to learn

something helps you find a way in which
I could totally imagine being true.

I mean, so much of what
I do now, I mean like.

Learning guitar is, guitar has been
my main focus for the last few years.

I am, I will never be as good
at guitar as I am at saxophone.

Right.

But there just came a point on
saxophone where I was like, well,

I kind of wanna do other things.

Yeah.

And putting myself back in that place
of struggling, of not just being

able to easily play the instrument
has been really good for me.

Yeah.

And I could, I'd never thought of it
as, you know, something that you could

watch somebody else doing, somebody else
struggling with and learning in that way.

It's that beginner's mindset.

And, and a big part of it too, for
Suzuki, is the parent needs to know it's,

it's such an interactive thing because
you go in once a week for a lesson.

If you're 3, 4, 5, 6 years old, you've
got six days of how do you, like the

parent has to be the teacher actually.

Mm-hmm.

That's what it's really about.

But it's not just like, well, you're
fiddling around and just fiddling.

Ha.

Catch that dead there.

Inadvertent dad jokes.

Um, you know, somebody has to be
teaching at home and a lot of these

methods kind of fall short because
you're just having to go by the book.

You don't have the one to kind of Correct.

And especially for violin, it's such a
physically awkward in, I mean, when I

switched to piano, I didn't really switch.

I started, I added it.

I was like, oh, this is my home.

It just, oh yeah, you get to sit down.

Ergonomics alone.

All the ergonomics are off the chart.

Yeah.

Press the button, you get a note.

It couldn't be simpler.

It's in tune.

Well, it might not be in tune.

But's not your fault
if it's not, you know?

Right, right.

That's so funny.

But that was really my beginning.

It was like so much music in my house.

It just seemed like a natural thing.

It's like the ultimate like.

Sort of cultural privilege, I think,
to come up in a household of, um, you

know, I mean my parents loved me too.

They didn't just gimme music.

They were great parents.

Right.

Which is not a given either, but
still it's a nice extra thing.

Yeah.

So, I mean, just mu making music
and thinking about that as a

profession and or a vocation
seemed normal as opposed to mm-hmm.

Most kids get into music and their
parents are like, I'm not paying for

you to go to some stupid conservator
man, and, you know, get a real degree.

It's so true.

I, I recently made an episode
about my dad and he was very much

not that he also just treated.

Wanting, me wanting to be a professional
musician as something reasonable,

like, as just a, a career profession,
like a profession that I could have.

And it was so important.

And I, after that, I heard from
so many people who said something

similar and from a few who said the
opposite, basically, my parents never

believed that being a musician was
something like a real goal for me.

And so I didn't feel supported and
I've regretted it my whole life.

So yeah, that is, that is very important.

Yeah.

But we could go on a whole tangent here.

I mean, I kind of, now I want to ask
about the Orff method really quick.

Do you know about the Orff method?

Wait, what's the difference
between the Orff method and Suzuki?

I don't know it as well, but I
actually did some of that too in

like a. Preschool that I was in.

Um, I remember it sounds, it sounds kind
of similar understanding of it right?

All it's the kids like
mallets and no reading.

Yeah.

I remember having a lot of fun
with the Glock and Glock and spiel.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I've taught some students who
learned the Orff method, which is

essentially you the same kind of idea.

A lot of ensemble playing.

Yeah.

Focus on rhythm, your training.

Um, and seems like a very cool thing.

I mean, the thing is like music, it's
like all these different methods.

I, I think, I mean, some of 'em I
think are a little bit whack, but

the main thing is like, music is fun.

Like for kids, like any method where
they're not engaged, it doesn't mean

there's not gonna be different levels.

And of course there's the
talent we bring to it.

But one big thing in Suzuki is like, it
is so much more about how you're nurtured

in music than what your natural talent.

Like they, one thing that's not accepted
in Suzuki is like that some people are

not talented enough to play an instrument.

It's something that's so deeply
ingrained in me, um, that.

Like if you're sur I mean, people like
when they found out my story, they're

like, oh, both your parents, oh, that's
why genetically you were predisposed.

I said, no, I just, they played
a lot of music around me.

I got to hear a lot of good stuff.

I got lucky on some things.

Yes, I had some talent, but I would say
the talent part was way, way, way less

than people think as opposed to mm-hmm.

Kind of a nurturing musical environment.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And kind of tracks with what you're doing
now, which I guess we, we could get into

a little bit later just talking about,
you know, how you've approached your

own style of teaching and kind of, you
know, bring, bringing that forward and.

And offering a lot of people of
different skill levels, ways to learn,

since I agree the, the talent thing
is typically overblown, even though

it always feels a bit rich coming from
someone who, you know, was like, did

grow up with in incredibly skilled
parents and like, has been playing for

a really long time and, and has been
a brilliant player from a young age.

I mean, you know, it is, it's true.

I could also give you stories
about how my parents screwed me up.

There's all, there's those like, we'll,
we'll skip over though, so I don't

wanna make it like it was all, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

No, no.

It's, uh, no parent is perfect.

Um, so how did you discover jazz?

When was, when was your jazz awakening?

So I had heard a fair amount of jazz, like
from my dad's records, uh, from when I was

pretty young, if not from the beginning.

Like he's, he's really a classical
musician, but he's always enjoyed jazz

and, and had a nice little collection.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so I, I definitely heard it
growing up, but it was more like,

that's dad's music, that's whatever.

What were some of the first
records you remember hearing?

Uh, well, the first ones I remember were.

There was a great box set
called, um, the Smithsonian.

Uh, what was it like the Smithsonian Jazz?

The classic Jazz Collection.

Yeah, I remember that.

And it was like a thing that you
had to order or like donate or

become a member of, and then mm-hmm.

And mail this beautiful, like five LP set
and like I definitely heard that stuff.

Later on I kind of, when I really
started to get into jazz, I dove into

that and it was such a great thing.

Like, like, um, nice Miles Davis,
uh, bags, groove is on there.

Mm-hmm.

With Thelonious Monk, art Tatum.

My dad had a record called Art Tatum.

Piano Starts here.

That's, that's the first like real
hardcore jazz record that I'm conscious.

Like I remember when I heard
that, I was like, what?

Like, what is that?

And then Miles Davis, my funny
Valentine, that was a little

bit later, but mainly that.

That classic jazz collection had so much
had Ornette, it went all the way up to the

current time, which like the, the craziest
thing was like Ornette Coleman in 1968.

I think that's about when
that thing was put together.

So it was funny 'cause that's
like, wow, we're right.

We're going from Lewis Armstrong
West End Blues I think was

the first track on there.

Oh no.

Maybe had some um, jelly Roll Morton even
before that Mead, Lex Lewis was on there.

Ah, nice.

So much great stuff.

Yeah, it's interesting to put, to
put this in time, you know, you're

listening in the sort of mid seventies.

Yeah.

Which isn't that far after, you
know, you talked about my funny

Valentine, that was what, 64?

Yeah.

So it's only like 10, 11 years after that.

So this is like, you're listening to
music from, for us, something from 2014.

Right.

But I mean, man, the sixties seemed
like, I mean, still to me seems

like because I wasn't alive and it's
like, man, that was ancient times.

But yeah, for sure it wasn't.

Yeah, well, in some ways it was even
in the seventies and so much changed

just in like recording technology.

The recordings just sounded so
different that, that I would

imagine it was very different.

Yeah.

So did you find, uh, a jazz piano
teacher pretty soon after you

started getting interested in jazz?

Not really.

I mean, well, I found some sort of
mentors and some sources of information.

Um, I never, I, I always
had a really great.

Uh, piano teachers coming up.

I grew up in, mostly in St. Louis.

I was born in central Florida,
but I, when we, when I was five

years old, my family moved to St.

Louis.

Okay.

And, uh, 'cause my father got a job
playing with the St. Louis Symphony

and it was kind of a random move.

He was just like looking to,
to, uh, a whole nother story.

Anyway, like that was the first orchestra
he, he auditioned at and it was kind

of a warmup 'cause he was gonna go
audition at some other orchestras.

'cause normally you have to, and he
just sort of got offered the job.

Um, and so it was like,
we're moving to St. Louis.

You know, I don't remember any
of this or hardly any of it.

Um mm-hmm.

But the idea was that.

Like they, through the orchestra.

I kind of was, I grew up around
the symphony players a lot.

I used to go down to the hall,
it's funny, it's like a block

from where I'm sitting right now.

Yeah.

Come full circle.

Powell Hall.

Um, so I, I was always around a lot
of other good musicians and they,

they got plugged in pretty quickly to
some really good piano teachers here.

And I always had, I had
three different teachers.

The main one was, her name was Jane
Allen, was just an amazing teacher.

Nice.

At that time.

And St. Louis still kind of is like,
it was a little bit of an epicenter

for like youth music education.

Mm-hmm.

Especially in the seventies and eighties.

Uh, and even still, so like the band
programs really good, the orchestra

programs, a lot of that's trailed off.

But like, it was just a lot of luck
that I was here, even beyond my parents.

So I had great classical teachers,
but I didn't really have, I had a

couple of jazz teachers sporadically.

Uh, but it was more the classical teacher.

I was listening to records.

Um, and then the big aha
moment was in like 1983.

I met Winton Marsalis, who
came to St. Louis and played

with the St. Louis Symphony.

And it was right around the time
I was really getting into jazz.

Like, I was kind of
like, man, I like this.

Mm-hmm.

And he, um, my dad was playing and he
met him and said, Hey, my son and some

of his friends, we were in middle school,
like, have this kind of jazz band,

you know, you got any advice for him?

And he's like, man, can you bring
them down tomorrow to the rehearsal?

I wanna meet them.

You know?

Um, nice.

And that began like a whole,
so we got to skip school and we

came down and, and Wynton wasn't
that, I mean, he was probably.

I think he's like maybe nine
or 10 years older than me.

So like he was in his early twenties.

This is like, he's in the jazz
messengers around this time.

Is that right?

After the jazz messengers,
but not that long after.

I mean, this was probably like,
no, he had already done like his

first couple of Columbia records.

Mm-hmm.

And I was kind of aware of those,
especially one because, well, he played

on a Herbie Hancock record mm-hmm.

With the Vs OP two.

And I was really into Herbie Hancock.

I just got into Herbie Hancock.

And so I kind of knew about him from that.

And then he was a real, it was
like an explosive time for him

because he won a Grammy for best
classical record and for best jazz

record, which had never been done.

And he played live on, I remember
I watched that on like CB.

He played classical and jazz.

Can you imagine that?

Yep.

In the main, I know.

Prime time.

They don't have none of
that on anymore, you know?

No, it's always been the amazing
thing about Wynton, he, um, Monnet

trumpets, the trumpets that he plays,
those are made here in Portland.

Sure.

And I know a bunch of guys who
work there, so they'll, they'll

get seats for when Winton comes
out here, like with Lincoln Center.

Yeah.

And you get to hear him play and Yeah.

I remember even from the first
time I heard him, it was that

album, uh, is it called Carnival?

It's like with the Eastman Wind Ensemble.

Yes.

And it's, uh, it's, you know,
him playing classical music and

just crushing, I mean, playing.

Oh, yeah.

I don't know.

Circular breathing stuff.

Playing flight of the mumble bee, doing
all this totally ridiculous stuff.

Yeah.

And of course that's simultaneous
with he's putting out these

groundbreaking jazz records.

Yeah.

So, yeah, he had a big eighties
and nineties for that matter.

Yeah.

And I remember my dad was like,
slightly, I don't think my

dad had heard him play jazz.

Um, I knew he, he was just like, I
remember him just saying, mm-hmm.

He's like, man, this is the best classical
trumpeter we've ever played with.

And they'd had like Ma, Maurice,
Andre perform with him and stuff.

And he's like, this kid is Unbeliev.

I'm like, kid, man, that
dude's old, you know?

But it was just fun to meet him because he
was like, um, I mean like the first time

I met him, he gave me his phone number.

It was like, if you have any questions,
I remember he told me, he was like,

man, check out Thelonious Monk.

And I'm like, writing stuff down.

I'm like, what?

How do you spell that?

He's like, for what?

Yeah.

And I went to the rec, you
know, the vintage vinyl the

next day, the record store it.

Mm-hmm.

Oh man.

You know?

So he really was, was a huge, um.

You know, just open things up for
me, even though I knew a few things.

But, uh, he told me about this,
this McCoy Tyner solo on la these

lament on an album called Crescent.

And, and I just always
stayed in touch with him.

Turns out he was doing that
with like a bunch of kids around

the country as he traveled.

Yeah.

You know, um.

And then he ended up connecting us.

And I know we're probably gonna end
up talking about Roy Hargrove, um, at

some point, but that was, that first
connection I had was through Wynton.

So I mean, like Wynton was, he really
was the internet of the eighties.

I, for jazz, like he was the, like, if
you wanted to connect with something or

find out some information that's, that
was, he was so generous with his time

and, and you know, whether or not there
was a ne nefarious diabolical plan to

like, create little underlings to come up.

That's another, I'm not sure, I don't
think so, but maybe a little bit.

That's not so diabolical though,
you know, that's like, I kind of

get why he would wanna do that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I mean, he was also very
controversial at the time.

I, I wasn't totally aware of that.

Mm-hmm.

Because I just didn't
have a big worldview.

But I mean, in terms of the jazz community
and what he represented, his records,

the amount of money they, and press and
marketing they were putting behind him and

his really steadfastness in terms of like.

Defining acoustic jazz
is the only real jazz.

I mean, I'm mm-hmm.

I'm simplifying, but I mean, yes.

There, there was a lot of controversy with
that, which just, you know, made the story

even more interesting, I think, to people.

Right.

Right.

I mean, this was a time where yeah,
you could, you could look at Branford

playing electronic, you know, or
like funky jazz and Wynton kind of

not being into that style of music.

And then there could be a kind of a
narrative of us, like these two brothers,

oh, they differ in their philosophy.

And, and that was some drama that
people could get into, which feels kind

of quaint, given today's standards.

But, uh, it was definitely a thing.

I mean, I remember even
from when I was young.

Yeah.

And I mean also, I mean, like that
next year, he came back and played.

With his quinte at Powell
Hall, just a jazz show.

And that was the first time I,
and he had Kenny Kirkland on

piano, um, charette mt on bass.

Yeah, Jeff t I'm guessing on drum.

Jeff on drums.

Charette Moffitt was
like 17 or 18 years old.

Good God.

Yeah.

And Kenny Kirkland and Branford, you know.

And then the next year when he came back.

He had a different band because Sting came
and kind of swooped up Kenny Kirkland.

Right.

And, um, Branford and kind of what you
alluded to, there was a little bit of

a, a inter-family feud between Wynton
and Branford for them to, you know,

he, he, he described it very much as
his brother and, and them selling out.

I mean, he used those words.

He's like, they're selling
out to the music and stuff.

So,

yeah.

It's interesting to think about Wynton
being this incredibly generous sort

of, uh, vanguard of jazz education,
which he very much was when he also

has, you know, later a slightly like a
reputation of being kind of conservative.

Yes.

And he is, but he was, he was out there.

You know, I, I know people who've
had similar experiences with him.

Um, so I grew up actually
in, in Bloomington, Indiana,

like on campus at iu.

David Baker is like kind of a
similar kind of figure in the world

of education, and I'm very familiar
with what you're talking about.

Some listeners might not
know this, like Midwestern.

Jazz scene.

Yeah.

And actually I think people still
think of New New Orleans and New

York as being the kind of two like
central points of jazz in America.

Yep.

And don't realize that Chicago and
Missouri, you know, Kansas City and

St. Louis were just as important.

I mean, Chicago was
probably more important.

It was maybe the most
important city for jazz.

Yep.

And once you've kind of learned the
actual history of jazz and scene,

the way the music kind of moved
through the country, it starts to

make more sense how somewhere like St.

Louis, you know, you could land
there and suddenly be in the middle

of just this huge world of jazz.

And there was.

There was all this, um, innovation
going on in jazz education,

specifically, like what Dave Bak was
doing at IU was really groundbreaking.

The way that he was kind of codifying
and learning how to kind of build a

pedagogy, I guess, around bebop and how
to teach bebop vocabulary, that wasn't

really something anyone had tried before.

And there were a lot of people
in that, in that area doing that.

Yeah.

I mean, David Baker, I got a chance
to meet him when I was in high school.

And what a guy, one of the
cool, one of the coolest guys.

So cool.

Really?

Yeah.

And I actually did a summer program
at, at iu, uh, when I was in high

school one year and Oh, cool.

Studying classical with Manam
Presler, who was incredible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, nice.

Um, but I went over and met
David Baker and, and, um.

He was so kind.

And we even played something in his,
you know, famous office and stuff,

and he was just like, yeah, if you
end up coming to iu, let me know.

And, you know, the whole thing, which is
probably a mistake that I didn't, I did

audition on classical there, and, um,
I, it was one of those, like when I, I

graduated high school in the 1987, there
were not a lot of, there was Berkeley,

there was Indiana, I mean, like mm-hmm.

Real jazz programs.

And I would say Indiana's was actually way
more real than Berkeley's at that time.

Yeah.

Um, and then a smattering of other
things, but like Julliard, where I

ended up going, they had no jazz.

They had a couple people secretly
playing jazz and it was New

York City, but they had nothing.

So I, I, I kind of miss that.

I mean, now it's like so many choices.

Miami, I guess Miami was
already happening by that time.

It was, yeah.

And by the, in the 80, late eighties,
nineties, that was really when it was kind

of picking up like the early nineties.

It had, it was a very different
program than when I went there.

So I, I graduated high school like
almost exactly 10 years after youth.

So in 99, and then went to Miami
right through the turn of the century.

Yep.

And it was, I mean, it was
a, it's a great program.

It was very different, I think in
the late eighties and nineties.

It was like a little more intense.

I think there was more cocaine there.

And it was also just like a
little more studio music focused.

Yeah, man, it was Miami in the
eighties, but it was starting out and

they were definitely very influenced.

By Indiana, like Whitt Seidner who one
of the, the, you know, big guys there.

He was an IU guy, which actually
didn't even know when I went there

and only found out later that
Whitt was like in the band at iu.

So you can see how people like
David Baker and Jerry Coker, who

I know was, I think was directing
the band that, uh, Whitt played in

when he was at IU kind of influenced
the whole world of jazz education.

'cause their graduates then went on to
right run programs all around the country.

And really quickly, we have now this
huge ecosystem where like, I, I mean

there are a ton of universities with
really, you know, killer programs.

I mean, yeah, I, I would say probably.

Like, there's three people that pop
to mind, two of which we've already

talked about, that are probably
the most influential and arguably

important jazz educators of all time.

Definitely David Baker, no doubt.

Mm-hmm.

Winton, you know, through his, mm-hmm.

You know, his institutional stuff
at Julliard later, but all the, just

informal stuff that he continues to
do with inspiring kids and teaching.

Um, yeah.

And Barry Harris, you know Barry Harris.

Yeah, man.

Like, just in terms of
like the most probably.

Uh, you know, identifiable, uh, system.

Like, like he's the ultimate, like the
Barry Harris system, which to be honest,

I don't even totally understand it myself.

I'm ashamed to say.

Yeah.

I've never spent a long
time with it, though.

I'm familiar with it, but it's,
but it's like one of those things,

it's like that, that DaVinci code
thing, it's like once you, it's

like a cipher of piano, you know?

Um, and once you get it, people just are
like, you know, you talk about a cult,

but a beautiful cult, Barry Harris.

Mm-hmm.

And, and the same thing, like, he
taught a lot of people and then

they're, they're continuing his
thing on after he's even passed.

So, can I throw a fourth name out there?

Jamie Aber sa.

Oh.

Possibly as influential as those three.

Absolutely.

One, two.

1, 2, 3, 4. I mean, I,
I went to a Jamie Abu.

I had like, I won Allstate something.

Allstate Sure.

Soloist or something.

Got a scholarship to go to.

Mm-hmm.

Al's camp in, um, blooming
actually Bloomington, Illinois.

Confusion.

Yeah.

Confusingly enough.

Uhhuh.

But yeah, I mean he was, yeah,
he was hugely influential.

Yeah.

He kind of, so to anyone who doesn't
know, Jamie Bal, um, was at the forefront

of play along CDs, among other things.

That's what he was best known
for in the nineties, was he would

buy, you know, all Bird, that
was one of the ones that I loved.

Or the Sunny Rollins one.

He would get great players.

I think like Ron Carter's playing bass
on the Sunny Rollins, maybe the bird one.

Yeah.

He gets.

Always the top guy.

So he would get a top band and they would
record kind of just a small group playing,

you know, whatever, some tune and then
just cut out the soloist and you'd get the

rhythm section and they'd buy it on CD or
on tape, or I guess vinyl back in the day.

And then you had something
that you could practice with.

This was before the internet, you know,
gave us thousands of options like that.

So it was a really big deal for
people like me to just, when I

was a kid, to just practice with.

But in addition to that, he
also ran these large programs.

I, yeah, I went to his, he, I think
he was doing one in Missouri when I

went, um, one of his summer programs.

And it was huge.

Other big, he would, Midwest, you know.

Have you ever taught at one of those?

I feel like you would,
you could totally be.

I never say one of those.

I never have, but I was really
in, I was just, remember back

to that one week program I did.

I met Pat Lebar.

Oh man.

Um, who was like teaching my ensemble
kind of changed my, I mean, he like just

showed me one thing and I was like, damn.

You know, it was a, it was a cool place.

Adam Nusbaum, my first, met him there.

Yeah.

I mean, oh yeah, for sure.

Real New York players,
you know, like out mm-hmm.

Out in the sticks in Illinois.

It was fun.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

It was a, a big deal and kind of, yeah.

Part of, I think I always called
them the Midwestern Jazz mafia.

Yeah.

The kind of, uh, the, the Aber SA players
who would show up at those summer camps.

So, all right.

Yeah.

Let's get into, like, you are, you've
gone to Julliard, as you mentioned,

uh, it was a classical program, and,
and out of that, pretty quickly, it

sounds like you were playing with Roy.

What I'm, I guess what was the sort
of the story of that, like going from

school to playing with Roy Hargrove
and just how was that experience?

Yeah, so I, I went, I mean I was really,
I was at Julliard for three semesters,

um, full, full disclosure, although
it's one of these funny schools they

send you, even if you're just barely
there, they treat you like an alumni.

'cause I think so many people left early.

It's like, Berkeley,
Berkeley's the same way.

It's like, yeah, didn't Roy Hargrave like
go to Berkeley for like a year or so?

And they're like, they send me all the
alumni magazines and all that stuff.

Of course they do.

Yeah.

That's so funny.

But I was there.

But I mean, it was really about,
I wanted to go to New York,

you know, and I just, yeah.

I couldn't get organized enough, or
I didn't know there weren't a lot of

actually good jazz programs in New York.

Um, and because I got a scholarship
at Juilliard, I was kind of like,

yeah, you do that for classical,
but it was a little bit Sure.

Tough place because I, I really
decided I wanted to play jazz by then.

And my teacher at Julia was
like, I heard you play jazz.

You cannot be in my studio
if you're practicing.

Oh, it was one of those, oh.

I was like, this is 18 nine.

What's going on?

You know?

Wow.

Um, but anyway, I got, I got
to meet a bunch of musicians.

Just, I used to go downtown and Sure.

And I met like Larry Goldings
the first week I was in New York.

He had just, there was a whole scene.

That that year.

'cause the new school had just started,
like the new school jazz program.

It was like literally the,
either the first or second year.

And I had a couple friends from St.
Louis that I knew that were going

there, Mike Wilner and uh, Dave Berger.

And so I would go down, I met
Larry Goldings, um, I met, uh,

Jeff Keyser around that time.

Just a bunch of Really?

Oh yeah, sure.

Yeah.

And I'd already met Roy.

Roy wasn't in actually in New
York yet, which was crazy.

I think he was, that was
the year he was at Berkeley.

Uh, but then he was mm-hmm.

New York, the, the, the very next year.

Um, and, and just, you know, Greg
Hutchinson, I met him the very

first week I was in New York.

He's from New York and was, he
was actually still in high school

that year, but was like playing
Europe chores and stuff already.

And so mm-hmm.

It was a really exciting time and kind
of the beginning of that jazz lions

thing that they called, you know Yeah.

The young lions.

The young lions of the nineties.

Young Lions.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, so this was like 88, 89,
but then I didn't really.

They, I didn't actually play with,
I played a few things with Roy, but

I didn't play in his band until 94.

Um, okay.

In the meantime, I had kind of a detour.

I ended up moving to New Orleans,
um, which ended up being, it

was a little bit on a whim.

I had some friends down there and, and
there was a trumpet player named Marlon

Jordan, who was like really being hyped
up, actually a sort of the next Winton.

It was like Roy Hargrove, I think had
just gotten a deal on like, Verve records.

I mean, it was crazy.

Like, young players were like,
yeah, it was a different world.

It was a d were getting
like big, I mean, big.

They weren't like, you know,
it wasn't Taylor Swift, it was.

Sure.

But I mean, it was like real
record deals and, you know, CDs

had really gotten established,
so there was like this mm-hmm.

Everybody was having to replace
their LPs, so it was like a lot of

money and, and it was pre streaming
and, and, um, Napster and all that.

So, um.

Yeah, Marlon Jordan was from
New Orleans, so he brought me

down there to do some gigs.

I met some musicians and I was like,
man, I love the scene down here.

So I ended up staying there and I
mean, I really lived in New or in New

Orleans from 90 through, um, 2005.

Uh Oh wow.

Really?

Yeah.

I didn't know that.

Yes.

I mean, I did.

I went and stayed and spent a lot
of time in New York during that

time, but I was really down there.

I mean, I ended up, um, getting married
and having started a family and stuff.

All my kids were born in New Orleans.

They're all over.

Oh, man.

All over the place.

Oh, so New York, St.
Louis and New Orleans.

Have you lived in Chicago?

You've almost got all the four
major jazz cities, or Kansas City?

I, my daughter lives in
Chicago, so I, I Okay.

Yeah, I know Chicago next best thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uh, but yeah, new Orleans really
became my, my finish, my, my real like.

Finishing jazz school, you know?

Hmm.

Like I got a chance there.

I met Brian Blade and Christopher Thomas.

Well, Chris Thomas I knew since we
were in middle school in St. Louis.

Right.

He was my friend.

I've been playing with him.

And then we, we ended up playing with Josh
Redmond together, but I met Brian, um, in

90, might, maybe even at the end of 89.

He was going to Loyola School
of Uh Oh, I didn't know that.

Okay.

And this is for listeners drummer Brian
Blade and Bassist Christopher Thomas.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Who played in the Joshua
Redmond Quinte with you.

Right.

And then Brian, they had just started
a jazz program at UNO and Brian

transferred over there, but then
he was starting to get some gig.

We all were kind of getting some gigs here
and there, but the cool thing was we were.

There was gigs in New Orleans
during that time, like good gigs.

Yeah.

Victor Goins, who's a great saxophonist,
um, would started hiring us to do gigs.

Jermaine Ba, a wonderful singer.

We played at Snug
Harbor, we did trio gigs.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and that actual trio of Brian, Chris,
and myself became kind of like my man.

'cause they were like my best friends.

And we would, we would just get
together and rehearse every day.

Even if we didn't have a gig,
we'd go get coffee, play chess,

and then like make arrangements.

And we all love the same kind of music.

Sit and listen to records.

And so like, that was such a
beautiful period that early

nineties, um, in New Orleans.

A lot of really great players.

Do you think that, so some of that
is surely just because you're young,

you don't have a lot of, you know,
a lot of requirements on your life.

Yeah.

It's, it's a little easier to play
together, but also you're describing.

A world that does not exist, like a world
where there's enough work to support

this kind of mid-tier economy of jazz.

Where, you know, you mentioned Taylor
Swift now the music industry, right?

It's, you're either making literal
billions of dollars, or there's just

not very many gigs and not much work.

Do you think that just the fact
that there was so much work made it

possible for you guys to play together,
it just seems like that would be

such an essential part of building
the kind of tightness that you had.

'cause that rhythm section, I mean,
I'm, I'm, I'm sure I'm playing

some examples of you guys, but
you guys were in absurdly tight.

Like you had clearly just like
lived music together for so long

to have that level of connection.

Yeah.

I mean, it was, it's, it's
kind of what you're saying.

It was just sort of like luck of
the time of us finding each other

and then Yeah, being able to play.

Together a lot in different
kind of situations.

We were doing like traditional New
Orleans gigs, modern stuff, funk stuff.

We would sort of have our
trio vibe when we could.

Um, a lot of playing with Jermaine
Basil, so getting to play with

a great singer where you gotta
like change keys Yeah, sure.

And all this weird stuff.

Um, and.

Yeah, I think the economics of it,
I, I think we, we forget about, or

we take that for granted, you know?

Um, and it was a time, I mean, it was
like we were just doing a hundred dollars

gigs, but the thing is, like those
gigs are still a hundred dollars gigs.

It's like, but a hundred dollars
was, you know, that's what's

crazy about it doesn't go as far.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like the gig.

So at that time, that was a pretty
good gig, you know, and mm-hmm.

We, we were, and then we were also
starting to do some touring even before

like the Roy and the Joshua thing.

Like, we were, like, in 91, I got a
chance to play with, um, Betty Carter,

who was, that really was like
my graduate school, you know?

Like that was, that's when I really
started to like, oh, all the stuff

I should have learned, or I think,
I know now you're in the big time.

You know, because she was, she was legend
status by that point, and she was also

kind of, you know, she had been on the
Tonight Show and she had this record that.

The poster for, it was in one of
the kids' walls on the Cosby Show in

like the late eighties, Betty Carter.

You'd see it like every, I mean
like she was a thing then, right?

It was very rare in jazz.

And so when I got a chance to do that
gig, I was 20 years old, but I was just

like, oh my God, this is Betty Carter.

And so I was living in New Orleans and
she'd always kinda had a requirement

that you, everybody would always live
in New York, you know, her groups.

Mm-hmm.

And so I kind of just
didn't talk about it a lot.

And I'd stay with Greg, Greg in Brooklyn
and you know, I'd stay his apartment and

then we were on the road that whole year
anyway, so it didn't really matter, uh,

where I was living, but like that was.

That was just crazy.

Like what I learned and like,
we're playing Big fa, we,

we did a seven week tour.

I mean, talk about stuff
that doesn't happen anymore.

Yeah.

We did a, it was my
first European tour ever.

First time going to Europe, a seven week
tour, and I mean like hitting almost

every night and like trains and, and
like just, you know, random flights.

Like, wait, which airport are we?

I mean, paper, itinerary
paper, everything.

It, it was great.

It was great and, you know, um.

That was probably the biggest
amount of growth that I've ever had.

But then I came back to New Orleans
and was like playing with Brian and

Chris again and like doing this stuff
and like we're bringing all these

different things that we learned back.

So it was, it was really just.

A, a perfect storm of, for me, in terms
of like, just growth and joy in my life.

Yeah, I can imagine.

That sounds great.

I mean, especially given that you
were playing for, you know, audiences

playing real jazz for audiences.

Yeah.

Some, you know, guys I went to school
with, so I went to school in Miami, right.

And the cruise ships
would run out of there.

So a very common thing to do would be,
over the summer you'd get your piano

trio a gig on like a carnival cruise.

And that was a way to have
what you're describing, you

know, a like eight week tour.

Yeah.

Essentially you're playing every
night, but you're on a cruise ship.

You're kind of playing for people
who maybe aren't that interested.

So it's, it's like, it's not quite
as much fun, but it is kind of the

way that a group, especially a jazz
group, can kind of build that chemistry

and learn how to play together.

And I'm sure the amount of learning that
you do is just, is just totally wild.

Yeah.

It's, yeah.

I don't know.

What do you think about the fact that
it's so difficult for young players

now to have the same experience?

Well, I mean, you know, it, it's.

I, I, I, I don't like it, but I'm
also like, you can't turn time back.

It's kind of like, what I do want to have
is for young players, and maybe they're

doing this more than I realize is to
find their version of that for today.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Because everything is, is different.

And that's not always a bad thing.

I mean, we look back on those
days as being like, yeah.

I mean there, there was a
lot of problems in it too.

And a lot of like, there was a lot of
like gatekeeping in a way that I think the

younger musicians now are so much better
about, you know, overcoming, um mm-hmm.

And not just musical, just
like, I mean, it was such a

good old boys network, you know?

And so I think a lot of things are
better, but I mean, in terms of like.

The, the core elements,
it's beyond just Jet.

Like, what we had was not just a chance
to play together, but we would hang

together, we'd listen to music together.

I think that's why your podcast and,
and hopefully ours and these other

kind of musical geekery podcasts, I
think are so important because for

a lot of people, that's their, for
younger people and for older people,

that's their version of what we used
to have just hanging around listening

to music and talking about, wait,
what, what was that chord you played?

Man, that felt great.

Really?

I love the way it, it segues to this.

Mm-hmm.

Or listen to the way they
mic the drum, whatever it is.

Like, we would do all that.

And it's like that, that
communal, cultural, uh,

attenuation to the music mm-hmm.

Is so important.

And so a lot of times people
are like, well, everybody's

so separate in social media.

And it's like, yeah, but that's gonna be
hard to put this genie back in the bottle.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's like, how do we use the podcast?

How do you use Instagram?

It's like, yeah.

Kids don't have, as, as many
young people, don't have as many.

Of these communal, maybe performance
or touring opportunities, but they

also have the ability to like DM
Robert Glasper and he might answer

you back, you know what I mean?

Like I had to wait for No, yeah, for sure.

Kenny Kirkland once a year to come through
town and, and maybe I could get his phone

number, see if he'd dance with a number.

But I mean, like the communication
stuff actually should be and, and

is better, but it's just everybody's
still trying to figure out how to

harness it and how to work through
just the cacophony of, of information

being thrown everywhere, you know?

Like we had that.

Yeah, no, yeah.

We had that advantage of like.

Listening to one record, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Um, just over and over again.

The sheer volume is definitely,
is definitely difficult.

And that's, you know, true across the
board with like every type of media now.

Yeah.

But it is true.

I mean, it's very easy to look back
at what you're describing, you know,

this heyday in the nineties and Yeah.

And what was clearly like a really,
a really amazing time in a lot of

ways, uh, for you personally too,
and just be like, ah, that was,

that was the best, uh, 'cause it
does sound like it was pretty great.

Yeah.

But, um.

It's good to look at that and kind
of try to understand what was good

about it and how to transpose that
onto the world we now live in.

Because yeah, like you can't
change the way things are.

We can't rebuild the whatever
economy of compact discs in 2025.

It's just not gonna happen.

And uh, and so, uh, it's more about
thinking, thinking through what it was

spec, what was special about what we
were doing, because I completely agree

with you and I think you'll hear it.

Your show really does, uh, something
very similar to strong songs and trying

to, you know, get back to that feeling.

'cause I, you know, I learned just
as much when I was in school sitting

around with the guys I was in school
with, listening to records and

talking about them as I did in class.

And I learned a lot in class.

It was a great school.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's just, I learned a ton
from that experience for sure.

And, uh, yeah, there are ways, there are
ways you can have that experience now.

Yeah.

Because like, we look back and
it's like, oh, you know, I met

Wynton, then I met Kenny Kirkland
and he showed me these things.

Like, that was great, but what's even
better is if Kenny Kirkland, you know.

RIP Kenny Kirkley.

But if he was still around to do
a podcast, breaking this stuff

down, then every young pianist
that's interested could hear that.

They don't just have to be lucky,
like me and my dad happens to know

Whitton 'cause they work together.

Well, you know, it's like Right.

Or like you happen to live in
Bloomington, Indiana or St.

Louis.

Like you happen to live somewhere
that people come through.

You could live in whatever, you know,
rural Nebraska or some, somewhere, just

a long ways out and still be able to,
through the internet, get access to that.

Yeah.

Which is, you know, pretty awesome.

Yep, for sure.

So, all right.

So you play with Roy,
you play with Joshua.

I guess we can kind of
conclude on this part.

'cause this is like the, this
is just like peak nineties jazz.

This is when, I mean, this is the stuff
that I, when I was a teenager, was

listening to and was just knocking me out.

It was like the hottest new
players, Joshua Redmond, who

I've talked about on the show.

Yeah, plenty of times.

One of the most exciting
sax players I've ever heard.

I just like love his
playing so much personality.

That group, that quintet that you
had with him was just so much fun.

And yeah, I'd just love to hear any, I
guess, any additional thoughts on, on this

period, on the kind of transition and just
what it was like playing in that group?

It was great.

I mean, I had, you know, I did the
Betty Carter, then we did a thing called

Jazz Futures, which was the same trio.

Me, Chris and Brian.

Right, right.

Uh, but then with, uh, Nicholas Peyton,
we were working, that's another one I

should mention in New Orleans as well.

Yeah.

I thought you played with Nicholas Payton.

That's right.

Yeah.

He was a big part.

I mean, he's a couple years younger,
so like when we first started

playing with him, we were like 20
and he was in high school still.

Oh, wow.

And this is of course for listeners
Nicholas Payton, a great jazz trumpeter.

Yes.

Who, uh, outta New Orleans.

Really just another great player of
the, the same sort of time period.

Yeah.

And then I played, started
playing with Roy in 93, at the

end of 93 and all through 94.

And that was a beautiful, I like
that was not with the same rhythm.

That was not with Chris and Brian.

Mm-hmm.

Um.

That was at Rodney Whitaker
and Greg Hutchinson, who I kind

of reunited with from playing
with Betty Carter and meeting.

Yeah.

And man, you sent me this video.

I'll be playing a clip
from this right now.

This live performance in Germany
with both Ron Blake and Josh Redmond

on tenor sax along with Roy on
trumpet in that rhythm section.

Just absolutely killing
what a performance.

Oh yeah.

Well, and actually that gig or one of
the gigs that same week, like I was

playing with Roy then and Oh yeah.

And Ron Blake was on.

Like that's probably, I mean this is
not to like, that was the most exciting

like jazz group I have ever played with.

Redmond solo.

He just goes and goes.

At one point he kind of stops.

It's this amazing moment
where he's like, slows down.

And he, he's still playing his solo, but
he just doesn't build it the whole way.

He kind of stops.

He takes some time, he leaves some space.

Yeah.

Builds it back up,

man.

I mean, he was, what, he was
pretty young at that time and uh,

he has like a full head of hair.

Yeah.

It's, uh, it's funny to see him
then he just, man, he sounds good.

And yeah, Ron Blake
sounds brilliant as well.

What a group.

Yeah.

And that was right.

That kind of was the reason.

Um, I mean, I, I actually
knew Joshua for a while.

In fact, Josh came down to New Orleans
a couple times and played with us.

So we all kind of knew each other.

But when I was playing with Roy that
summer, that summer of 94, Joshua did a

couple guest things, like whatever that
gig was, and we sort of started talking

and he knew about me and Chris and Brian.

And Brian Blade was already
playing with Joshua then, and Brad

Meld was on piano in his band.

Right.

And this is like right around, so
Redmond won the Thelonious Monk

competition, which you also won, right.

This is, and that was kind of a big,
in the nineties, especially like

a big kind of coronation, I guess,
for up and coming jazz players.

Weird, ridiculous.

Like that's a part that
I don't think was great.

I didn't win either.

Yeah.

Joshua did win.

I came in, oh he did?

Third or second.

I think I came in second.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Ja.

Jackie Terra.

Not that I'm bitter about.

It came in first.

Yeah.

Oh, that's right.

I remember people made a big deal
out of this thing big that Joshua

Joshua or the, the, the Felonious Munk
competition every, it was big because

it basically came with like a major
record contract and, right, that's right.

Like an agent and all the things now
that you don't kind of don't need in a

way that's, yeah, it's another thing.

But yeah, it was a big deal then.

And um.

But yeah.

So this was a couple years after
that, I think, but not many.

Okay.

Like Josh, he had wish had come
out, which was huge with Papini.

Right.

And that has meld out on it, right.

Ish.

Exactly.

Uh, no.

Yeah, that's, I think, no, I think it's,
no, the next record Mood Swing has bread.

Oh yeah.

Mood Swing has Mel out.

Yeah.

And this is that year 94 when
like, mood swing was really big.

Great record and Yeah.

Fantastic stuff.

And so I'd been talking to Josh
and he kind of started calling me

and was like, Hey, I'm thinking
about maybe making a change.

He's like, Brad, I don't know.

You know, like, might
be doing his own thing.

Mm-hmm.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

Brad.

Mel, now he kind of sucks.

I don't know.

Can't really, can't really play.

Yeah.

I think I'm gonna fire him.

I mean, and I'd known
Brad for a long time.

We're like exactly the same age, and,
and like I've always been a big fan of

stuff, but I was so happy in Roy's band.

Like I was kind of like, uh, but then.

So Josh sort of started, it became a
little bit more of like, well, maybe

I might make a change on bass too.

What if it was like Chris
Thomas on bass, you on piano?

And of course if Brian will stay Brian.

And so then I was kinda like, wow,
that sounds interesting, you know?

Um, and we were still playing together
a lot in New Orleans whenever I was

home and, and they were doing some
other things, but, uh, so it just,

by 95, kinda the beginning of 95,
it just sort of became inevitable.

And when Brad left, Josh hit
me up and that was like the

hardest decision ever to leave.

Roy's man, I only played with him
for a year, so I, I really felt

like it was unfinished business.

And so when I looked back on that,
I'm like, was that a mistake?

I don't know.

Um, mm-hmm.

But, uh, but it was a great situation
to go in with, with Josh, and I think

that was the time when he really felt
like he'd sort of figured some things

out from his first couple of bands and
like when he had Pat Metheny with him,

that was more, I mean, it's Pat Metheny.

It's not really like, yeah, right.

Your band, you know.

But I think he was kinda like, I want
to, you know, he had some different

ideas about music and stuff and so we
started like, I think February or March

of 95 and like went straight through.

I mean, he had so many, I thought
I toured heavy that year before

we were growing, but this was just
like, yeah, constant, constant.

It was fun.

I mean, we were doing bus like, um.

I don't want say rock star
buses, that's what it was.

Bu whatever, like But a tour bus you
for a jazz tour, which is not nothing.

Exactly.

But then we did it so much and so I was
telling some younger, but they were like,

what A tour bus on a, I was like, yeah,
in the nineties we did that all the time.

I mean, were crazy man.

Mean we were playing so much,
it was probably saving the

money 'cause it was like.

Day one night, or one night
or one, you know, just mm-hmm.

College gigs, clubs.

So it was fun, and I loved that group.

It was Quartet, I think for the
first year or maybe two years.

And then he added Peter Bernstein,
who on guitar, which was great.

We were all big fans of his and friends.

Yeah.

And really opened, opened things
up in the, in the arrangements too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, it's funny, I, you
mentioned my episode about, um.

So what and about kind of blue.

Yeah.

You talking about this trio that you had
with Brian Blade and Christopher Thomas.

It makes me think of Winton Kelly's
Trio, like of the idea of a jazz piano

trio being the core of other groups,
but like working as a trio together,

which just seems like it's this really
important element that's easy to forget

about when you're looking at liner
notes and who's playing on which record.

Like the trio being its
own little identity.

Yeah.

It just seems very, very crucial for a
band having a sound like you guys did.

Yeah.

And I think for Josh, um, it was, uh.

I mean you, you know, one's memory or
the perception of one's memory from

that time is always a little funky
'cause it's been sure for 30 years.

But the, I think the, my impression
with him was always like, he liked

that he was getting this rhythm ready
made rhythm section where we had

all this rapport, but he was also a
little bit like, hold on now, like.

This is my band.

How do I, how do I keep this
from getting outta control?

'cause it's three against
one kind of thing.

Um, I feel like his musical
relationship with Brian Blade

especially was so locked in, I mean,
the way that they played together.

Yeah.

For me as a listener, especially when I
was young and first hearing you guys, I

didn't know that about the rhythm section.

Yeah.

And I always really gravitated
to that musical relationship

between Brian and Joshua.

Yeah.

He was totally the bridge.

Not only in terms of he's, so
the band before was Brad mailed

out Christian McBride on base.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, Josh and Brian.

And so like Brian was the bridge
between that, but also like, I

really like took that serious,
like when he called me to do it.

And that was when mood swing is still out.

Like I studied that record.

I learned all the things
in my year and like I, um.

Really checked out the way Brad
was playing, but I also was like,

okay, I want to bring my own thing.

And Josh always wanted that.

He's like, I don't want to
do this stuff the same way.

No, yeah, sure.

You know, um, although he kind of did, you
know, it's always like, you kind of wanna

do it, but you want to see what else.

And I think we did a good job
of like bringing and like what,

what a rhythm section that has.

Years of, you know, personal and prof,
you know, professional on stage, rapport.

I think Josh was smart.

You know, like, I think he saw
an opportunity to like, and then

really helped to organize things in
a way where we were playing stuff

that we had never really played.

I mean, it wasn't that big of a
departure, but like Josh has always

been, I think a fantastic and, and a
little bit underrated as a composer.

I think he's one of our generation's.

Oh man.

Best jazz composer.

I completely agree.

Just having transcribed and
learned a bunch of his songs.

He's a great writer.

Yeah.

A really interesting sense for melody.

Yeah.

I've been listening to some of those
old records and I just, I remember every

single melody, cold, even if there, it's a
song I haven't listened to in a long time.

Just 'cause the melodies are
so unusual and beautiful.

Yeah.

And of course, yeah.

Is harmonies great stuff to me.

Yeah.

Well, we're gonna talk about some music
and, and make some recommendations.

We're gonna talk a little
bit about Kenny Kirkland.

Before that though, I want to ask you
a little bit more about Open Studio.

Yes.

Just because we've been talking
about teaching jazz, this is this

major thing that you've launched.

I guess first could you just give
listeners a kind of backstory?

I know some will be familiar, I know
some take courses with you guys.

Yeah.

But some will not be.

So maybe just give a little bit of
a, a nutshell of what Open Studio is.

Sure.

Yeah.

We're, we're, um, a jazz community
for folks that, um, wanna learn

how to become better players.

But I think.

What it's really become is more like how
do you live a musical life as mm, at no

matter what your level, no matter what
your age, no matter what your ambition

level, but just like kind of having this
connection of jazz or jazz adjacent.

Oh my God, I never thought
I'd use that word there.

Well, but I mean just like jazz and
like the harmonies that jazz represent,

just like wanting to be creative
with your development as a player.

Um, and, and we really have folks, you
know, all the way up into their nineties.

Uh, we have some younger folks, but we
mainly serve people that are like, Hey,

I'm just getting back to my instrument.

Like I retired early, or I have some
time on the weekends, or I just, I don't

know what to practice and I don't have
access to a teacher, but I wanna, I don't

wanna just sit around watching YouTube
videos and I get lost or whatever.

Um, so this is not like
Berkeley School of Music online.

This is not, how do you get to the
Village Vanguard in the next year and a

half week guarantee, or your money back?

This is really about like,
how do you just get a little

bit better sometimes some big.

Jumps ahead, but kind of know how
to practice, know how to take.

Living a musical life with your instrument
every day, like enjoying the journey.

Um, it's, it's very much like, you
know, I've gotten into marathon

running over the last like, five years.

Mm. So sort of later in life.

And it's like, how do you
enjoy the training each week?

What's the training plan?

And then hopefully so that you
can have a great marathon day, but

also so that even if the marathon
gets canceled, you're like, man,

I'm so glad I went through this.

When's the next one?

You know, oh man.

Have you read Dave Leeman's book,
Self-Portrait of a Jazz Musician?

Do you know that that book Lieman is
'cause he's a long distance runner.

He made this crazy album.

This is Leman the saxophone player, who
was actually a, a big influence on me in

a number of, of ways when I was young.

I had a very important
conversation with him.

Uh, I think I've talked
about it on the show.

He has this album called The
Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner

that I always found fascinating,
especially when I was younger.

It's a lot of like ob
dubbed soprano sax stuff.

There's actually a cool version of
it that he did live where he, he

reads a bit of an intro, uh, for
like the concept of the piece as

I imagined what a marathon runner.

I must endure.

It seemed like the perfect metaphor
for the journey of an artist.

Upon further thought, I realized
that artists are not alone in

experiencing life's journey, but
they do articulate the voyage for all

mankind to see here and reflect upon.

But in the final result, the long
distance runner is all of us.

His book, Self-Portrait, a jazz
musician, is like a very interesting

end marathon, uh, informed look at jazz.

So it's very, it's just interesting that
you mentioned that, but um, but that

totally makes sense, like to that, that
kind of mentality, that that long paced

mentality could change how you think
about jazz and man, I mean, I gotta say.

It's, I love that approach.

Like I love the way that you describe
it and what it looks like Open Studio

does, and it stands in such contrast,
I think, to the way that I learned

jazz and I think the way that a lot of
people learned jazz in the nineties.

You mentioned gatekeeping earlier, it's
like there was this turbocharged feeling

of exclusiveness, like it was so about
the like meritocracy, about auditioning

and like cutting other players and the
best player gets to be in the band.

And there was so much like talking smack
about other players and kind of, you

know, just a lot of competitiveness.

It was very male, it
was very aggressive and.

That is just, I feel like so many
musicians now who, or jazz musicians

who've reached middle age have kind of
rejected that and said, you know, so many

people could play this music or love this
music, or, you know, learn to appreciate

it and have it be part of their life.

You know, live a musical life without
needing to play at the Village

Vanguard without needing to take
this incredibly intense approach.

And actually by dropping that approach,
you open the door to so many more

people, you know, loving the music
and making it a part of their life.

So, uh, it's, it's interesting
to hear that marathon running

was the thing that got you there.

Was there anything else?

Like, I don't know, any other experiences
that, that Yeah, I mean that the, the

marathon run was more about like, I
was already well into doing open studio

when I got on that, but it, it like
helped clarify, like, I think when I

started this, it was really just about
like, I'm gonna pass on information

that I learned, that I was taught
from other players or on the band

center or from records or whatever.

Mostly stuff that, like, it was
nothing I invented, it was more like.

Yeah, sure.

I, I knew how to teach it and, but it
would really just be like showing, it

was very, not very, but it was generally
intermediate to advanced jazz piano stuff.

It's like, this is the
way you can play Misty.

I'm using this five note voicing.

If you put the sixth here,
it'll sound like this.

Just showing it in a way so that
if somebody could play pretty good,

it was super useful for them, those
lessons, because it's like just having

somebody that's a pro player just sit
there and show you, you know, yeah.

How to do it.

And so I always thought, well, that's
what this will be, and then I'll

add other instruments and all this.

And then it turned out like all
the people that wanted me to

teach them in that way mm-hmm.

I got pretty quickly.

And that like, that's kind of,
because there's not that many of them.

There's not that many, you know, and
they're, there's relatively few of them.

Yeah.

And so like, I kind of got.

I learned how to get comfortable on the
camera and like how to make videos and

how to, like, it's weird when you're
teaching not directly to somebody, but

you know that they're gonna be there.

Mm-hmm.

So it took me some time,
sets some reps on that.

And so during that, well this is also
something that Adam is really great.

Adam Maness Adam who does a
lot of these because I taught

him everythings Of course.

No.

Yeah.

He's fantastic.

He is.

He is really good at that though.

Like talking to you like you're
there, you know, even though

he is just talking to a camera.

Oh, hi there.

I'm musician and middle-aged
influencer, Adam Maness.

Today I wanna talk to you
about approach chords.

Why do approach chords matter?

Well, we wanna have several
ways to approach important

chords in our progression.

Yeah.

And it's, it's kind of the kind of
thing you just have to do a bunch,

or at least for me to get that.

Mm-hmm.

Oh yeah, sure.

But then when I started realizing, I was
like, wow, there's so many more people.

Well, there's a lot of people like
what you're describing, people that got

gatekeep out in the nineties mm-hmm.

Or the eighties that are
coming back now and being like.

Oh, wow.

I, I want to connect with the
music I've given up my dream.

Yeah.

Like actually the dream of getting to the
village Vanguard is not that important.

I just wanna learn how to play bebop.

Right.

That'd be, yeah.

To the best of my abilities.

And so that's what, mm-hmm.

For me, the running has been
about, like, it's not about, yeah.

I mean, sometimes I'll think, oh,
this would be cool to do this time

goal, but it's not, I'm not rating
myself in relation to other people.

Mm-hmm.

It's all about mm-hmm.

Me and my journey.

And also a community of supportive
other runners, you know?

And so right when I started looking
at Open Studio, I was like, this is

not just about, yes, we'll give the
specific training on these tunes, but

it's also about the beginner level.

It's about you haven't played
your instrument for a while.

Is there still a place
for you in the music?

Absolutely.

You're a kind of a folk singer songwriter
on guitar, and you're interested in

jazz because you wanna learn upper
extension stuff, but you, we're not

gonna keep you out because you're
not like West Montgomery or nothing.

But you know, it's like, yeah, right.

No, let, let's, let's talk
about those things and so.

When we started to be
more inclusive with that.

And Adam has been huge for me
because he's always kind of come

from more of a multi-gen approach.

Yeah.

I mean, he's very much a jazz pianist,
but he's always had more, like I came

up, like all the great things from
what we talked about, but also all

the bad things as far as like Right.

Swing out.

You're not, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And so that mm-hmm.

That, I mean, I'd been opening up over
the years anyway, of course, but Adam was

huge once I brought him into the fold.

And so now we just kind of let the
community direct us in terms of

like what their needs are and try
to create programs and courses.

And we do a lot of live classes now.

Um, I mean, we've got.

People in 124 countries active members.

Wow.

Which is crazy, but Makes sense.

'cause the music is internet.

Is is global.

It's a global language, you know?

Do you find space for getting people
together to play since I would

imagine that's the hardest thing
about teaching jazz online, right.

Is that it is a music
that you make together.

Like it has to be made
in the moment in space.

But as you grow, I would imagine
it's more and more possible to

have meetups or for people to get
together and play with one another.

Yeah.

And we've been having a bunch of
spontaneous meetup among the members and

now we're kind of trying to Hell yeah.

Help organize that.

And you know, we've got
an, we've got a, we.

Community area of our site called the
hang, very unimaginatively titled, but

I think it's apt, you know, accurate
harkens back to those days where

people can connect and message and like
propose different things and like we're

starting to get a lot more of that.

And in fact we have some in
real life events that we're

organizing ourselves for next year.

And so that's kind of the next frontier.

We've had folks here too, at the
studio, members that have come

in to do different programs.

Um, I mean that's the hardest part.

Like the beautiful part is connecting
people from 124 countries potentially.

Yeah.

Just like that, you know?

Mm-hmm.

The hardest part then is like, how
do you connect them Certain places

like London, New York, Los Angeles,
like we have some places where

we have a lot of members, right?

So it's been easier for
that to start happening.

Um, but I, I foresee more of that.

In, in person stuff in the future.

That's really cool.

Yeah, it just seems like a pretty,
a pretty amazing thing and it's,

it's cool to hear how it got
started and, and how it's grown.

Yeah.

Let's, uh, let's talk about some music.

So I always ask for music
recommendations and I know we wanted

to talk a little bit about Kenny
Kirkland, who's come up a few times.

Yep.

The late great Kenny Kirkland, uh,
jazz pianist extraordinaire who

played with a number of people.

Um, I first heard him playing
with Kenny Garrett, but I

think you heard him earlier.

So let's start with Kenny.

What is your, your background with Kenny?

Kenny Kirkland?

Well, Kenny was really the first jazz
pianist that I heard in person and on

record around the same time Oh, wow.

That I was like.

Oh my God, I wanna do that.

I want to be that.

I want to be him.

Nice.

Whatever him is, you know,
that I was just like, mm-hmm.

Transported like that.

It's that weird combination of like
awe and inspiration and like, yep.

I could never do that, but wait, wait.

If I could, you know, just mm-hmm.

Inspired, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Um, now, I mean, I'd heard
Herbie Hancock and McCoy, I'd

even gotten into McCoy a little.

Like there was like legends, but
like Kenny Kirk, because I saw him

lie, like that was such a big thing.

Right.

Uh, in 1985, he was playing with
Win Marcellus and I was 14 and like,

it just hit me at that right time
and I got a chance to meet him.

I just went up to him after the show.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, that's another thing.

Young people have to
get back to doing that.

Like Yeah.

Everybody's like, oh, I'll just wait
in DM and like, no, go meet the Ians.

Yeah.

Like that's, go say hi.

Like, people are generally very nice.

They'll talk to you.

Yeah.

I mean, I remember it used to
be so many more pe young people

would come up to us after shows.

Mm-hmm.

And now it's like, I'll be going up to
them, I'll be like, Hey, how you doing?

And they're like, ah.

You know, that's so funny.

But, uh, I went up and met him and he
was so, I mean, look, there's always

the risk of they're gonna be an asshole.

That's, that's, yeah.

But that's always been
there, you know, and always.

And the exception not the rule.

Exactly.

Speaking guys are usually pretty chill.

Yeah.

Um, but Kenny was so great.

I mean, he was just like,
Hey, you know, just.

He had a warmth about him.

Mm-hmm.

And I was just in awe.

I just heard him play all
this incredible stuff.

And, um, but he was like,
let's keep in touch.

And then the next time I saw him,
he remembered me, which is like,

when you're a 14 or 15-year-old
kid, that's like everything.

He's like, Peter, right.

I was like, what?

And so he just really was like, he
never did anything huge, like gimme

any secret scrolls or anything, but he
just was kind and like, what was, and

it was never like, you need to do that.

Like win was more like, have you
been practicing all that thing?

I told you you Uhhuh candy was way
more laid back, you know's he'd answer.

That's funny.

Anything I'd ask him, but he
was never gonna be like, but

I mean, I just connected with
his playing, like on record.

Yeah.

And then when I heard him and like
always was like there was something

about his, his style, um, that just
like really became the foundation

of a lot of the things I played.

I mean, I'm probably not the most.

Like, I mean, you can hear us playing
in, in my playing, but I think

because I have a lot of influences,
it's not as obvious as some people.

Like, um, Joey Razzo I think is the
ultimate, like Kenny Kirkland disciple.

Mm-hmm.

Like he studies his stuff.

He can play just like him.

I mean, he amazing player and
of course has his own song.

Oh yeah, yeah.

You know, played with
Branford for all these years.

So like he fits into that role
of some things that Kenny did.

So for me, it's not as much
about that, but just his joy,

his approach to articulation.

His dance man.

Yeah.

You know, his, his swing
feel so particular and

like, so it's so funk fused.

Like when he's swinging there's such
like a kind of backbeat undertone to it.

Really exciting stuff.

Yeah, it's funny, I had a, I had a
similar actually experience to what

you described, seeing Kenny Kirkland.

Seeing Kenny Garrett.

He came to my high school in Bloomington.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, this is when he was playing
with Chris, Dave, and I can't

remember who the piano player was.

It was post Kenny, but it
was around that songbook era.

Yeah.

Like late, it was maybe 98,
maybe a year after a songbook.

Yeah.

And, um, then going and
listening to Songbook and Kenny

Kirkland plays on that record.

And man, I mean, sing a song of song,
that song the Kenny Garrett kind

of pop song with the four chords.

Yeah.

Um, it just knocked me out at the time.

I just didn't really know that A straight
ahead jazz group could sound like that.

And Kenny's.

Kirkland's playing on that record.

I mean, yeah.

Two down, one across.

Mm-hmm.

Um, his solo on that, the way he sequences
ideas and something in his swing.

It's not, he's not just
like rat ta ta ta ta.

Yeah.

It's like it has this
kind of bounce to it.

Yeah.

There's this kind of ebullient bounce.

He kind of carries over top of the groove.

It's a hard thing to explain,
and I'm not much of a pianist,

so I've never transcribed him,
but there is a joyfulness.

I think that's a perfect way to
describe the way that he plays.

Yeah.

No, I mean it's, yeah,
it's, he has that bounce.

He has it's personality.

It's like he has, yeah.

Yeah.

His technique.

He shaped it so well around his
musical persona and like bringing

that out in everything that he plays.

Even if it's something like very,
I. You know, kind of somber.

There's that song on songbook,
the, um, the beautiful ballad

where he's playing the melody.

Melody.

Oh yeah.

Um, you still feel, I mean, that's
not like a swinging, bouncing thing,

but you feel his his way of like,
just bringing tone out of the piano.

An instrument that's hard
to like, personalize.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, no, it's true.

It's true.

It makes it more remarkable when
someone does, you know, bill Evans.

Really?

Yeah.

It's like always came most
famously, but you know.

Yeah.

And he was just such a cool guy to such a
nice person and such an interesting story.

Really tragic, you know,
about us losing him so young.

I know.

Yeah.

It's funny we're recording this
right after DeAngelo died, and I

like, am increasingly just, it's
harder and harder every year to

deal with these brilliant musicians
who I grew up loving, dying young.

It's, it's really awful.

Yeah.

Um, so for, uh, for, for a pick
for Kenny Kirkland, you also talked

about, uh, brother John this Elvin
Jones record that, uh, that I had

actually never heard and is great.

So, uh, I'll play a clip from it, but
maybe talk a little bit about that.

Well, this was like, after I met
Kenny and heard him play in 85, I

was like, went to the record store.

I was like, I gotta find
everything this guy's played on.

Nice.

And which he hadn't played on.

I mean, he had played on some stuff,
but it was all like, kind of not mm-hmm.

Underground, but just like
real insider New York stuff.

But this is one of the records
I found, or, or maybe the only

one at that time, um, outside of
Black Coats from the Underground,

which came out a few months later.

I actually hadn't heard that
yet, but I'd heard do it live.

But yeah, this is, I mean.

The, the great, the legend Elvin Jones,
it's a kind of quirky record, but like.

In the eighties, even going back to
the late seventies, I think Palo Alto

records, there was a great, uh, gentleman
whose name I'm forgetting now who

started that and ran that record label.

And even like, I think the first
Dianne Reeves record was, he

actually had her do a jazz record.

I mean like some really great stuff.

And it was his studio and I think
he lived in Palo Alto, so that's

why it was called Palo Alto Records.

Kirk here as I'm editing the episode,
and the founder of Palo Alto Records

was named Jim Benham, who Yeah.

Founded it in 1981 in
Palo Alto, California.

Yeah.

Kenny Kirkland.

Yeah, man, he's a, a great player.

Um, well let's just go through your
other two, uh, music recommendations for

listeners since, uh, since we're coming
to the end of the episode, and I want to

give people even more things to listen to.

So number two is, uh, a Roy Hargrove
album that you guys just did an

episode on, uh, of, of, you'll
Hear it talking about this album.

This is one of my favorite
Roy Hargrove records.

Yeah.

Hard group.

So this is Rx Factor, his first,
uh, record with the Rh factor

Convi with, with that band.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and, uh, you know, it's, it's
top of my mind there, there's a bunch

of great Roy, I love Roy Hargrove.

I mean, I, I came up with him.

So it's, it's, it's bittersweet.

Every time I think about.

Him, his or hear his music
because you know, he died.

Yeah.

What, six years ago now?

Way, way too early.

And it's, it's really, I mean, it's like
one of those shocks in the jazz community,

especially for players around my age.

Yeah.

And it's kind of a hole that
it's gonna be, I don't know.

It's, it's, it's not gonna be filled.

Like, 'cause he was just such an
influence and, and then he was such an

influence on this current generation.

The more I learn about that, um, I mean
he certainly influenced me, but, but.

Where, I mean, he's like a, he was like
a year older than me, so it was more

like we really came up together and, and
like I said, went and connected us back

when we were in high school actually.

Um, but this record, like this was
very much something that he had

talked about doing, about doing like
a crossover project even back in like

mid nineties when, when I was working
with him and we even experimented

with some of the Parliament Funkadelic
stuff in the acoustic set setup Nice.

With that band.

So he'd always had, this was not
as big of a departure as I think a

lot of people thought was like, oh,
I'm doing all straight ahead stuff

and all of a sudden, so, but it was
controversial at that time, but I just

think he nailed it and talking about.

You know, DeAngelo, he's,
he's on this record.

He does?

Yep.

Um, let's stay.

Um, I'll stay.

I'll stay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, um, beautiful son,

beautiful, beautiful rendition.

And this is really coming out of.

I think as much of Roy's, you know,
upbringing in hip hop, like that really

being the pop music when we were coming
up, which it was a, a big part of it.

Um, and then obviously jazz, funk
fusion, all the way from like

weather reports stuff to more
like, you know, Herbie Hancock funk

type of stuff to Chicka Fusion.

Um, but I think.

And even bigger sort of immediate
influence on this project was what

the record he did that he was such
a big part of Voodoo of DeAngelos.

Yep.

That I think a lot of, well, and
this is like Russell Elva, right?

He produced our H Factor and
then all that neo soul stuff.

'cause like Erica Bedu is on this
record, common is on this record.

Like it's a lot of the same
musicians, uh, who were, who were

doing that stuff in New York.

So it, it totally makes sense
that there's that crossover.

Yeah.

So he was very influenced by that.

And it's at the, mostly recorded,
the same studio Electric Ladyland.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, um, man, I love this album.

Um, yeah.

I love, I'll Stay the
DeAngelo song though.

I've, I've been listening to a lot
of DeAngelo just the last day at it.

Makes me very sad, but
it's nice to his music.

And then Pastor t actually,
which is a kind of random trek.

It's just this like uptempo funk song.

Yeah.

I'm not much of a drummer,
but I'm All right.

And I turn that one up when I'm
playing drums and it makes me think

that I'm as good as the record.

Yeah.

And, uh, that's such a killing song.

I mean, I've, I've heard it so many times
'cause I like warm up on drums playing to.

Yeah.

But yeah, I love, love this band.

Yeah.

And I loved you guys'
episode about it too.

People can definitely go check
that out if they want to hear

you and Adam talking about it.

Yeah.

It has one of the greatest,
it's such a e simple thing.

Mm-hmm.

Um.

But like that board fade as it comes in.

It's such a weird thing, like the
fact that it works so well though.

It does though.

And like no one does that.

People do fade out still sometimes.

But why not just have it,
it's like already in motion.

Yeah.

Here we go.

That's probably a Ross Elva thing.

That was probably his idea.

That's, it's such a cool call.

Yeah, that's, man, that
yeah, that is a great call.

That's something I might steal
just 'cause no one does it.

And it would sound, uh, and
it would sound really cool.

I mean, the timing of it
is everything for that.

That's like the, like you gotta,
like, they probably just went

back like, no, move it a little.

Mm-hmm.

Like, try it here.

Yeah.

You gotta nail that.

Well, 'cause really that Oh yeah,
man, I can talk about it forever.

Just, it, it kind of lands
right at the perfect moment

of Roy's solo kicking it off.

But, uh, yeah, I love that.

I love that album and that
band just totally rules.

Well, all right.

And so for number three, you've got a
classic that we, we referenced earlier.

Yeah, so this is Miles Davis,
Maya, funny Valentine live at, at,

uh, the Philharmonic, of course.

Mm-hmm.

Lincoln Center, a legendary concert.

Herbie Hancock Piano, George
Coleman Saxophone, Tony Williams,

drums, Ron Carter on Bass.

Like this record, I think is, I mean
this is not like an insider pick at all,

but No, but it's also not like, this
was a super influential record to me.

'cause this is like the first
like stuff when I was like,

oh my God, Herbie Hancock.

And I like tried to put every note on this
record of his, so I know it really well.

But you know, how is like, sometimes
you study a record so much, you're like,

you just have like ear, like you Yeah.

Fatigue from it.

You know?

I think a lot of people get
that with kind of blue, right?

Right.

They've heard it so many times,
studied it so much that then you have

to kind of get outta your brain and
then you listen to it and you're like,

oh, this is just a really good Yeah.

Really good album.

But this record for some reason, I've
never, like, I love it every day.

Yeah.

Every month.

Like it's never.

I, I've never turned away from
it, even for a hot second.

And I think it's so, I love live
jazz records that are done well.

The sound is great on it.

Yeah.

I mean, it's not perfect.

It's a live record.

It's not supposed to be perfect, you know?

Mm-hmm.

But I think it's sort
of miles at his peak.

You've got this young man, they
were all pissed off with miles.

Like they Yeah.

That's the story, the
stage, which is great.

You know?

That's fun.

Mm-hmm.

He was like, what?

Not paying them.

He was like, this is
gonna be a charity gig.

Yeah.

And they, they were like.

Well do, you're rich and
we're not, you gotta pay us.

Yeah.

He rolled up in his like
Lamborghini I, his Ferrari.

It was like, oh yeah, let's not paid.

Let's go play the story.

And especially 'cause Coleman
just rips it apart on this.

And then on foreign more, which when
I was coming up foreign more, which

is the kind of uptempo, you know, B
sides, I guess it's the second release

of the same concert, same band.

Yeah.

Coleman just tears it apart on
foreign more and it's funny thinking

that he was just really pissed and
that, yeah, that was part of why

he played so well with such fire.

I'm sure Miles took credit for
like Yeah, I was just trying

to piss him off so they played.

Oh yeah.

Right, right, right.

It's all mind games.

These Machiavelli over here.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a great
record and a great pick.

Um, and one that, yeah, like I said, I,
I listened to four and more, a little

more coming up and just you picking this
when I was, you know, prepping for this

episode, I went back and listened to it.

And Nan, what a record.

That's Stella by Starlight on this record.

Oh, maybe the best.

I, it's one of my favorite versions
of Cell by Starlight now that I've

been back listening to it, like
it's just a beautiful rendition.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah, really great, great
record and yeah, maybe not an inside

pick, but one that everybody listening
to this could stand to go listen to.

Yeah, and I mean, if anybody wants
to go on a. A deep, kind of beautiful

rabbit hole around that band.

Um, there was, uh, and when I got
a chance to interview and, and work

with Ron Carter, something I remember
asking about this and like, he had

such clarity of that period, I was
shocked that he, man remember, like,

I'm trying to remember the nineties.

This dude, I'm trying to
remember my neighbor's name.

I'm trying to remember what
happened to me yesterday.

Ron Carter like remembers the bass
on the certain gig on the tour.

Oh man, man.

Yeah.

But it's like, basically they were
playing the same repertoire, like the

four more stuff that my friend, I'm
from this concert for like about a year.

Oh no, it was less than a year, he said.

But they did this like Europe tour
where they played, you know, like

Autumn Leaves and Stella by Starlight.

Mm-hmm.

And on Green Dolphin Street, it was
like, before they were doing, it

was before Wayne Shorter came in
and they started doing, you know,

other kind of material and like.

There, there's a bunch of records.

There's like live, there's one called
Live in Europe that's kind of in and

out of print, but it was live in,
in Antibe, uh, Juan Lapin, France

from that great festival there.

That's a stunning live
record, like almost.

Oh, nice.

I would actually say that's kind
of on the level for me with this

band as, as my kind Valentine.

Um, and then there's like
Live in Tokyo, live in Berlin.

There's all these, and they're
playing like a lot of the same songs.

The saxophone has changed a little.

'cause when Coleman left before
Wayne Shorter came in, they had, um.

I can't remember who.

Somebody Sunny Stitt.

Maybe There's a couple.

Really?

Yeah, there was a couple of
little things, but it was mostly

George Coleman on that stuff.

Nice.

But there's a lot of live kind of
bootlegs type stuff that's pretty

available that you can just, if
you wanna hear five versions of

how these masters played, autumn
leaves, like kind of different, like

surprisingly different night to night.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

But it's very spontaneous, very exciting.

Yeah.

That's cool.

Yeah.

I hope some people out there do that
deep dive, like finding those, especially

those kind of two great Miles groups,
you know, the 58 group, the kind of

blue group with train in, in Cannonball.

Yeah.

And then this, this later group with
Tony Williams and Ron and, and Herbie.

Yeah.

Like listening to other versions
of these songs, which I've

actually haven't done that much
of, uh, is probably a lot of fun.

Yeah.

It seems like you'll, you'll
hear the songs evolve over

time, which is really cool.

Yep.

Well, nice man, this has been a delight.

Wow.

There's a lot of listening to do.

Everyone listening to this.

You have, you have your assignments,
you got your links, go uh, go listen

to some of this music and check out
Open Studio and check out Peter's

music as well, because there's a lot
of really great stuff there as well.

Peter Martin, this was so much fun.

Thanks for coming on the show, man.

Man, thank you, Kirk.

Keep it strong as always.

I know you will and, uh, much I will
much love and listening enjoyment

to all your listeners and to the,
uh, the podcast music community.

Cheers, man.

Cheers.

Peace.

And that'll do it for my interview with
the one and only Peter Martin for a

list of all the recordings you heard
excerpts from in this episode, check

out the show notes and I really do
hope you'll go and check out some of

the great players that we discussed.

I also hope you'll check out Open Studio.

It's pretty cool what Peter and his
crew are doing over there in St. Louis.

I love that town.

I actually have some friends with
the family there, so maybe one day

I will swing by their studio and
see what they're up to in person.

At any rate, as always, if you
enjoy strong songs, I hope you'll

consider supporting the show.

I don't sell ads or have sponsors
or anything like that, so I really

do count on listener support
to keep this whole thing going.

There is a link for various ways you can
support the show down in the show notes.

I hope you'll give that a look.

Alright, that'll do it for now.

Work continues on season
eight of the show.

I'm very ex. Excited about it and pretty
excited about music in general these days.

For now though, I will catch
you the next time around.

Take care and keep listening.