00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:19
Unknown
Excuse me. Peter. What's up man? Yeah, I've heard that jazz musicians can have this affliction called stank face. Yeah. Can you demonstrate that for the people, please? Well, it just has to be natural, but it's kind of. Oh, yeah, I got it. Yeah, yeah.
00:00:23:21 - 00:00:43:08
Unknown
Sometimes we say, Dude. Yeah, yeah, but, I mean, classical players happen as well, right? Yeah. I mean, sometimes you'll see like like like,
00:00:43:10 - 00:01:07:12
Unknown
It's a little over the top, but but but pretty good. Let's combine the two. Maybe.
00:01:45:22 - 00:02:07:18
Unknown
More. You know. It's got it. You got the affliction.
00:02:10:04 - 00:02:29:12
Unknown
I'm Adam Manis, and I'm Peter Barber, and you're listening to the You'll Hear It podcast. Music explored. Explored. Brought today by Open studio. Go to open studio. Jazz.com for all your jazz lesson needs. Yes, Peter. Yes, sir. We have a special guest on the show today. I realize that I'm feeling like I'm not dressed appropriately enough, but I see him dressed similarly, so I'm excited.
00:02:29:12 - 00:02:48:03
Unknown
What's up? Josh? Hey, good to be here. From our favorite classical music podcast, Sticky Notes. The infamous Josh. Why there's a legend there. Josh, thank you for being here. We love your show so much, and we're so honored to have you on our show and encourage all of our listeners to go check out Sticky Notes if you're interested in classical music at all.
00:02:48:05 - 00:03:07:17
Unknown
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. I'm very intimidated to be on a jazz podcast, so I think I hope it goes okay. Well, we can talk about it. Maybe at some point we'll talk about who is who is more intimidating and snobby. Jazz purists or classical theorists, I guess I feel is going to have to be, I hate to say, overloaded snob meter today, for sure.
00:03:07:19 - 00:03:32:09
Unknown
So we thought with having you on the show, we could just listen to a lot of good music, specifically music that has some cross-pollination between our respective genres, because there's just been, I think, since the inception of jazz in the early 20th century, there's just been this amazing cross-pollination between jazz musicians and classical musicians, with composers and players and improvisers on both sides of the genres.
00:03:32:09 - 00:03:54:03
Unknown
And so I thought we could really have fun listening to music that is draws inspiration on either side from jazz musicians perspective and from classical musicians. That sounds great. Yeah, and I'm always thinking like the the other angle of it, obviously in the music that we're going to listen to some of these compositions on both sides. And also I think jazz musicians, so many, especially pianists.
00:03:54:05 - 00:04:17:15
Unknown
Okay, we're biased here. Can I put that out there? Everybody knows that, right? We're biased as pianists. Yeah. But there's so many wonderful jazz pianists that I think we all admire and have followed, learn from, trained under through the records and everything coming up in the lineage that we're really, and some of them very accomplished classical players themselves, certainly a lot of classical training.
00:04:17:17 - 00:04:36:05
Unknown
So I think that's such an important connection, just in terms of like the way we approach the instrument, the technique and the foundation of that. I think we're going to hear that if we get into some of this Herbie Hancock. Yeah, Ravel stuff in different things. You really hear the foundations of where we're coming from. Certainly as jazz musicians, I know myself, I was classically trained.
00:04:36:05 - 00:04:52:00
Unknown
I know you were to a certain degree. Yeah, we came up in that. So it's sort of that shared lineage of approach to the instruments, especially the piano. Yeah. Josh, why don't you tell us a little bit about your relationship with, with first of all, maybe just music in general, but, your relationship with jazz and as a classical musician.
00:04:52:01 - 00:05:20:09
Unknown
Yeah. So, I grew up in a very, very musical family kind of family circus. My parents are both musicians. My dad's a violinist. My mom is a pianist. My sister is a cellist. We definitely also listen to other music other than classical music at home. A lot of, like, 60s, pop music, like the Beatles and LED Zeppelin, which is music that my mom was obsessed with as a teenager, and definitely a lot of jazz, too.
00:05:20:10 - 00:05:46:07
Unknown
There was a lot of Miles Davis playing in our house. And it was always something that I really enjoyed and loved. I didn't know much about it. I never really studied it. And, you know, classical musicians are trained in a very I mean, to, you know, as many people know, we were trained to like, read music and to follow that music, and there's no greater sin than to not follow what a composer put exactly on the page.
00:05:46:09 - 00:06:11:20
Unknown
And it's interesting. We're going to be talking about Ravel, who was apparently, like the most neurotic about this. I was just reading a story about him because I'm actually writing a podcast about Ravel and Gershwin. Cool. And, apparently Ravel was on his deathbed and somebody played one of his pieces for him, and he, like, raised himself off of his bed to point at a dynamic that the pianist had not followed to the letter.
00:06:11:22 - 00:06:30:11
Unknown
So, you know, that is, it's so cute. It's like it's so great. Our attitude is the composer is sitting in the corner watching us and evaluating everything we're doing. So, this is very much like the classical training. And there's, there's some classical musicians that don't follow that as much, but that's sort of like the main way we are trained.
00:06:30:13 - 00:06:57:00
Unknown
So when we started encountering jazz, certainly in, when I went to New England Conservatory, there was a big jazz program. There still is a big jazz program there. There was a lot of attempts to kind of bring those two things together. Like I took an Intro to Jazz History course and things like that. It just it always felt like there was this divide that was very hard to, to overcome, without without a lot of effort, I think.
00:06:57:00 - 00:07:13:15
Unknown
And that's something that we, we didn't like. I remember talking about it with my friends at school. We wish we could be more involved in the jazz department and contemporary improvization, that kind of thing. Yeah. And I think that's when I was just thinking, like, some schools are doing a better job of that than others, and I don't want to like necessarily.
00:07:13:16 - 00:07:29:17
Unknown
It's not about calling anybody out. But I know what you're saying because I mean, any sees jazz has been wonderful for years and has, you know, so many particular wonderful attributes about it. But I know when I was at Juilliard, there was no jazz program. So you talk about like a wall. There was like a it was more like a cliff that you would just fall off.
00:07:29:23 - 00:07:47:16
Unknown
But my teacher, who was amazing, legendary teacher that I learned a lot from, he heard that I played jazz too, which is really the reason I came to Juilliard, was to go to New York and, you know, on the jazz scene. But he said, if you're going to be in my studio, you cannot play jazz. And I said, and I'm thinking, of course, I'm not going to play it in here.
00:07:47:16 - 00:08:03:07
Unknown
I'm here to learn Beethoven, to bark at Bartok at all. And he no, he meant like not. Maybe he was old school. It was like, it's going to mess up your technique. It's going to mess up your mind. It's going to mess up your family. It's going to mess up everything. And I didn't say that now, but he definitely felt like it was going to take away focus.
00:08:03:07 - 00:08:19:09
Unknown
And he was adamant. So I had to kind of I was I was a little bit of a fraud. I was like, I will not think about jazz practice it at all. You know, in a little bit. In his defense, the problem with it, I think in general, is that both disciplines really are a lifetime worth of work to do at the highest level.
00:08:19:09 - 00:08:38:10
Unknown
Like it's so hard to rob Peter to pay Paul on either one of those things. Yeah. It just takes so much time and effort to be, a top shelf, classical musician or a top shelf jazz musician. And the disciplines are different as we're going to talk about a little bit. But haven't you ever heard of a what is it, a to the decathlon or the heptathlon?
00:08:38:13 - 00:08:58:12
Unknown
So they do all those different things. I mean, think about the very few players who do both well on both sides, right? I mean, if it's like on one hand kind of thing, you know, so it's it's a very rare feat. So let's get into maybe some music. So, Josh, you your first pick here was Ravel's Piano Concerto in G major, specifically the first movement.
00:08:58:12 - 00:09:19:15
Unknown
So amazing. Yeah. You want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah. Well, this was a really interesting you know, as you said, there is this cross-pollination. And Ravel was somebody who got really into jazz. He wrote this, but he went to the US and this big tour, and he encountered Gershwin and he encountered lots of other jazz musicians.
00:09:19:17 - 00:09:37:00
Unknown
I mean, he really sort it out, which was something that not a lot of composers were doing. And I think he wrote this big article, which I've been searching for online for weeks because I'm writing this podcast. I never could find the full article, but I found a quote from it, which is he wrote, like, personally, I find jazz most interesting.
00:09:37:00 - 00:09:57:05
Unknown
The rhythms, the way melodies are handled and the melodies themselves. And so he he really embraced it in a lot of ways. It wasn't just in this concerto. It was also in the second movement of his violin Sonata, which is called Blues. Yeah. His other piano concerto, the Concerto for the Left Hand. It's a little less jazz influenced, but it's definitely there.
00:09:57:07 - 00:10:18:12
Unknown
And then this concerto. Yeah, I often think of it as the most jazzy classical piece, because it has and it's not jazzy in the sense of improvization at all, but it's jazzy in the sense of the harmonies that he chooses to use. That, that have that, that color to them. Yeah. You could hear his, his influences popping out during this time for sure.
00:10:18:12 - 00:10:37:06
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting, Josh, you said in that, in that quote from Ravel that he talked about the rhythm and the melody. I think for jazz musicians, we're always the first thing I'm hearing in a lot of Ravel's music, even some of the stuff much earlier, that had to have been before he'd heard, certainly before he came to the US.
00:10:37:06 - 00:11:02:23
Unknown
I don't know what kind of recordings, but I'm thinking, like the Preludes and the image for piano and stuff that I believe were like before 1910 that have a lot of harmonic material that we would definitely I would feel like it's got to be jazz influence, all those dominant ninth chords and or the other way around. But I'm starting to think maybe it was the other way around in the fact that he doesn't mention Harmony, but he says specifically rhythm and melody was maybe more exotic or jazz to him is super interesting.
00:11:02:23 - 00:11:26:23
Unknown
Well, let's listen to a little bit of this piano concerto in G major. Can you tell us about the recording here? We've got the Cleveland Orchestra. Yes. We've got the Cleveland Orchestra with Christian Zimmermann. I mean, this is like two very un jazzy. Yeah, one of the greatest pianists who ever. But. Yeah, but Cleveland has some good, you know, Ohio's got some great jazz roots, so maybe that pulls it.
00:11:26:23 - 00:11:48:05
Unknown
Oh, yeah. For sure. It's just that if that I mean, the Cleveland Orchestra is one of the greatest orchestras ever. Yes. But they they are a real keeper of tradition, right, among American orchestras. And from the tradition of George Szell to Dohnanyi to Franz Welser-most, like this is a real traditional orchestra. And Krystian Zimmermann is a very traditional pianist.
00:11:48:05 - 00:12:08:00
Unknown
So I kind of chose this partly because it's such a quote unquote conservative performance of it, because you can find recordings of this piece that really try to lean into the jazz side of it, which I mean, something maybe we can talk about later. It's something that I often don't think works when classical musicians are like, oh, I'm going to try to be jazzy now.
00:12:08:00 - 00:13:09:06
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. I love this pick for that reason. By the way, I think you nailed the recording of this. We got to also talk about later is, jazz musicians trying to be classical composers. I've got a idea. So we can figure out which is worse. Which way go. All right. This is, Christian Zimmermann, the Cleveland Orchestra, Ravel's Piano Concerto in G major.
00:13:09:07 - 00:13:53:11
Unknown
And the bottom.
00:13:53:13 - 00:14:32:21
Unknown
Oh, like a jazz. Get the score out. Check in to check in. To see if the jazz is documented in there. It's kind of what I was doing.
00:14:32:23 - 00:14:52:18
Unknown
Was just.
00:15:03:08 - 00:15:38:13
Unknown
Oh. Oh. Jazzy. Bassoons. Avec. Piano. Violin. Oh.
00:15:38:15 - 00:16:03:18
Unknown
Yeah. You definitely heard Gershwin. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of this is pulled directly from Rhapsody in Blue. You know that did it? Exactly. It's fun to hear Zimmerman play this stuff, though. It's really. Yeah. Fantastic. I think it's great that he's not leaning into, like, overly like trying to swing it like it's you can tell it's a very accurate reading of it.
00:16:03:18 - 00:16:22:14
Unknown
That's pretty straightforward. Yeah. This is why this, this recording is such a fun pick for this because of the sort of, as you were saying, the conservative nature of of these artists. Yeah. By the way, if you get a chance to pop over to Cleveland to hear some Beethoven or Mozart, do yourself a favor, Ravel or Ravel, go enjoy that, because it's as good as it gets here in America.
00:16:22:14 - 00:16:42:21
Unknown
Yeah. And absolutely no, that's your hometown, Josh. And like, is that I've always felt like and this is going back some time. Like Cleveland was always sort of the most traditional in European of the American orchestra. That's sort of still the case. I mean, it's hard to say if it's still the case because some I mean, orchestras all over the world have become so much more homogenous.
00:16:43:00 - 00:17:03:00
Unknown
I mean, with so much more influence from, you know, people from different countries and, but Cleveland, they have a something a bit unique, which is that they've had like the same music directors for a really long time. Like Zell, George Zell was a piece for the orchestra into the most, you know, well known orchestra and made it very, very European orchestra.
00:17:03:00 - 00:17:20:14
Unknown
And then they had Donati for a while who was in the same kind of tradition. And now Franz Welser-most, who is also in the same kind of Austro-German tradition. And he's been there, I think, 25 years. And it's very rare nowadays for music directors to say with orchestras that long. So they definitely have held on to that recognition.
00:17:20:16 - 00:17:43:16
Unknown
Her name is just her name. Exactly. Yeah. They, they they sound unique, which is also unusual among orchestras, which is it's funny, they sound unique in their conservatism because every other orchestra is trying these wild things and they're like, straight down the middle every time. And that's there's something really special about that. It's a really fun experience actually, to go there.
00:17:43:16 - 00:18:05:20
Unknown
Yeah. On the Hall is so great or so great, sounds so great and kind of breeds a certain type of player wanting to be there, I'm sure. So yeah. Josh, after you added this to our playlist, Peter added a different version of this from, Herbie Hancock's Gershwin's World album. What is this, like 90 like 96, 97, 97?
00:18:05:20 - 00:18:30:05
Unknown
Yeah. Late 90s, same piece. Herbie. Second, movement, second movement.
00:18:30:07 - 00:18:56:12
Unknown
I've never heard this before, so this is like, it's totally new for me.
00:18:56:14 - 00:19:22:03
Unknown
Because what's interesting about this is in the original there, the Ravel, the original. The rhythm is completely hypnotic. It just goes phoneme beep under all this light. And he's taking all of that away to make it sound so much freer, which is really beautiful. Yeah. And I mean, if you really know the original and you don't know Herbie at all, this is like, it's a little bit shocking and like.
00:19:22:03 - 00:19:46:22
Unknown
Yeah, it's jarring. Yeah. If like me, you know, the the Ravel, the original, and you really know Herbie, it's like it's like two worlds coming together. Because I think what you hear this and I really recommend folks check this out, whichever camp you're in or maybe you haven't heard either, is that you make and I was playing this for Adam yesterday, and Adam was just like, oh, that's like, you know, young Herbie must have been checking out a lot of Ravel, you know, because his touch.
00:19:46:22 - 00:20:08:13
Unknown
There's so many times I've heard him live, and certainly on recordings going back years, do a kind of introduction that almost sounds like that, just a free form. Improvization. So I think there was obviously a lot of, I mean, Herbie, you know, was an accomplished classical pianist coming up. He never totally gave it up. I mean, he played with the Chicago Symphony when, you know, 11 years old, he played.
00:20:08:13 - 00:20:29:01
Unknown
What was he that he played? Yeah. I'm just looking it up because, I remember this. He played the first movement of Mozart's Piano Concerto number 26 in D major, at a young people's concert on February 5th, 1952 with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra led by George Schick at the age of 11. Yeah. That's his. Yeah. And I think of all the like, obviously Oscar Peterson.
00:20:29:01 - 00:20:49:06
Unknown
Yeah. Their love of Art Tatum. Yeah. You can bring the technique. But I think with Herbie what you hear what he was just doing like the finger control, the ballet, like all the really nuanced classical like he had, you know, that he had really developed and applied to jazz. It's fun to kind of hear him come back to classical and apply it, but then bring all his kind of harmonic ingenuity and stuff.
00:20:49:06 - 00:21:08:03
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's a long tradition, I think, especially of piano players in jazz, of starting out in the classical tradition and then somewhere around adolescence, moving over and beginning to learn how to improvise and, and Peter Martin's one of them, Herbie Hancock's, one of them, Brad Mehldau. So many come to mind. But, this is great, man.
00:21:08:03 - 00:21:29:06
Unknown
Let's let's go on to maybe, on the jazz side of things. I mean, we have our own, canon of composers, and the one that comes to mind when we first started talking about this episode, Josh was Duke Ellington, right? Who is one of the most prolific composers of the 20th century in any genre. And we have this fun.
00:21:29:11 - 00:21:45:07
Unknown
I mean, we could have done so much from Duke, and we have a couple of things here, but I thought it'd be fun to play his version of Grieg's In the Hall of the Mountain King.
00:21:45:09 - 00:22:10:16
Unknown
Hall or the. Williamson. And so I'm. I'm. Hoping.
00:22:10:18 - 00:22:15:06
Unknown
To.
00:22:15:08 - 00:22:39:21
Unknown
See it it. Be.
00:22:39:23 - 00:22:44:08
Unknown
I.
00:22:44:10 - 00:22:48:14
Unknown
Do.
00:22:48:16 - 00:23:09:00
Unknown
Here's the thing about Duke Ellington is he did a lot of this stuff. We were both talking about playing the Nutcracker Suites. Yeah, in various, I've done it a couple times, and it's really fun. He always made them legitimately swing, and, like, he always kept, like, real. A real, pulse on this isn't a gimmick or anything.
00:23:09:00 - 00:23:32:21
Unknown
He made them into, like, something that real jazz heads are like, that is hip. And that is not corny. It is. It works the way that he's doing them. So. And and I'm just noticing, you know, his his, his given name is Edward Ellington. And so he's playing, the Peer Gynt Suites here by Edvard Grieg. And on the cover of the album, it says Swinging Suites by Edward E and Edward G.
00:23:32:23 - 00:23:54:01
Unknown
Yeah. That's fantastic. It's a great album cover, too. It's so, you know, it's. That doesn't sound corny from a classical perspective either, because it's so it takes it takes the sort of that original theme and then just takes it into a whole different direction. And I, I, I loved, I basically I just love his whole approach to music in general.
00:23:54:02 - 00:24:13:04
Unknown
A good thing. He said. Like, like some people think music is like black and white, but music is music. And there's two kinds of music good music and the other kind. Right. And I think that's so that's really great. And it this is it. I don't even speak of respect to the to the original piece because it's I don't think that's what it's about.
00:24:13:06 - 00:24:41:14
Unknown
But it has like the, the color of the original piece and then just this whole new world attached to it. So it's just so fun to listen to. That's a great way to put it. And I, you know, I almost like in this to the way that like Grieg and and I'm thinking like Bartok and a number of classical composers, especially 20th century composers that took, you know, folk songs, especially from their culture or their country of origin or region or whatever, and then turn them into classical.
00:24:41:14 - 00:25:00:14
Unknown
I think they weren't necessarily thinking of like that. But I think that when it's done well, I mean, when it's not done well, it's it's like a corny thing where you're mocking it almost, you know, but when it's done, well, like the way Bartok did it, Grieg and I think Duke Ellington, it's a similar kind of thing because you're really taking the element of it, in this case, the melody.
00:25:00:14 - 00:25:18:00
Unknown
And then just like wrapping it up with the jazz elements like, like you say, it's like he's not trying to make it a little bit swaying and bouncing around. And I mean, really, you know, Gershwin who's kind of looms over all this is, I think, the probably what most people would perceive as the great connector of classic or early classical in jazz.
00:25:18:02 - 00:25:35:18
Unknown
You know, the one that did that certainly did that. I mean, he came under some criticism, too, for maybe trampling too much in certain ways upon the different traditions, but certainly had a lot of success with it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, with the Grieg itself, which I actually didn't know until a year ago, is based on Norwegian folk music.
00:25:35:18 - 00:25:56:06
Unknown
And you bring up Bartok, who was I mean, he basically invented the term ethnomusicology with K.D. and going into the countryside in, in Romania and finding and and Hungary and Allen all over the place and finding all of these melodies and recording them. And then I think Bartok with this is a completely different, I think, approach to jazz.
00:25:56:06 - 00:26:20:13
Unknown
But he would take hours and hours and hours transcribing every little nuance that these singers would do. And he said it was out of respect to them because he didn't want to just stylize this music. You know, like Brahms, Hungarian dances are really famous, but those aren't based on actual authentic folk music. They were based on music that he would have heard in Vienna, which was played by musicians who may have like way back home from the countryside.
00:26:20:13 - 00:26:39:02
Unknown
But I'd come up with their all their whole kind of coffeehouse style. And so Bartok was really trying to do something totally new with that. And, and it, it worked. And I think that Bartok is also a name that a lot of people outside of the classical music world don't know. But he's so important to all of 20th century music.
00:26:39:02 - 00:27:16:20
Unknown
Oh, I totally agree. Totally agree. Yeah. And I think I wonder if that's the thing with Gershwin. If we look at maybe that's almost like the Brahms with the Hungarian dances, like Gershwin took the Blues, which he definitely had like a very, you know, deep understanding of from a musical perspective, from a theoretical perspective. But maybe not from, you know, as much, I think probably emotionally too, maybe not spiritually, I don't know, but he was there is a certain and you hear this coming through to the Ravel that we heard before, there's a certain surface level, you know, attraction to the blues and the way that he uses it.
00:27:16:22 - 00:27:37:05
Unknown
That could be seem a little bit simplistic that later on it was kind of more nuanced. The different composers not only classical, but just jazz composers and stuff in general, would approach the blues and how you brought it in. Yeah, it was almost it was it was never, I don't think a mockery of it, but it was a little bit of, simplistic, approach to it.
00:27:37:06 - 00:27:56:08
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, you're also talking about just a couple, maybe a decade and a half of the recordings of the blues when Gershwin is learning about, if that, if that. Even so, it's it's all fairly new. We're coming at it from a perspective 110 years later. So it's a little different for us. But, I agree with that.
00:27:56:08 - 00:28:19:08
Unknown
Let's before we get too far away from Duke Ellington, though, I want to play another one of your picks that is related. So this is Harlem by Duke Ellington. And tell us about this recording and why you picked it for this playlist. So this is a big piece. It's about 15 minutes long, and it's a piece that Ellington and his band played all the time.
00:28:19:14 - 00:28:38:07
Unknown
And there's a bunch of different performances on YouTube of it, which, and I think Spotify as well, and it was really interesting for me to listen to them because he wrote out a score which has been, arranged by different composers like John Mott. Cherry did an arrangement of it, for a pretty big orchestra, and it's written out.
00:28:38:07 - 00:29:03:10
Unknown
Everything is written now. There's no improvization all the solos are written out to the, you know, to the last note. And then you listen to, the, you know, Ellington play it with, you know, multiple different performances. And it always sounds totally different. And, there's always something new that they put in or it's a different thing. And so this recording was done by the Detroit Symphony with Namie Jarvi, who is an Estonian conductor.
00:29:03:10 - 00:29:29:15
Unknown
And these recordings were made in the early 90s. And Nemi Avia is responsible for rediscovering a ton of American music that people have just forgotten about. Like, for example, the William Dawson Negro Folk Symphony, which is an absolute 20th century masterpiece. William Grant still Afro-American Symphony, he specifically chose a lot of works by black composers that had just been had been really popular.
00:29:29:15 - 00:29:49:10
Unknown
And then it just kind of fallen off the map. And one of them is, Harlem. And it's just an absolutely wonderful recording, that I think really shows an orchestra that is totally comfortable in the idiom and doesn't, doesn't exaggerate it. I mean, from my perspective, I'm actually really curious to hear what you guys think about it.
00:29:49:12 - 00:30:09:15
Unknown
So from my perspective, it seems like they just they get it. Well, this will be the second time that we'll have, the Detroit Symphony Orchestra on the show, because we just did an episode on Marvin Gaye's What's Going On. Yeah. And that string section is the string section of the Motown recordings and so not unfamiliar, including the concertmaster, including the concert master, so not unfamiliar to our audience here.
00:30:09:15 - 00:30:22:09
Unknown
This is the Detroit Symphony Orchestra playing Duke Ellington's Harlem.
00:30:31:21 - 00:30:50:02
Unknown
Oh.
00:30:50:04 - 00:31:03:15
Unknown
Oh.
00:31:03:17 - 00:31:10:18
Unknown
And it's killing every.
00:31:10:20 - 00:31:35:14
Unknown
Man.
00:31:35:16 - 00:31:54:06
Unknown
One. Of my.
00:31:54:07 - 00:32:14:02
Unknown
So, what do you think, guys? Do they get it? Man, this whole 100% trumpet player. That trumpet player really? Like. That's that. That must be somebody pretty well-versed in jazz. I mean, it's got to be. Yeah. Like. Well, with this piece, often you bring in a lead trumpet player because classical trumpet players are not always trained to play that high.
00:32:14:08 - 00:32:33:20
Unknown
Right, right. And I think the last note of the whole piece is like a high off that. Oh, yeah. My, my first trumpet player in Denmark, he was like, no way, man, I'm not playing. So that's like a perfect fourth above where they stop usually. Yeah, yeah, I read a lot of a lot of pops arrangements for our local orchestra here, the Saint Louis Symphony Orchestra.
00:32:33:20 - 00:32:55:01
Unknown
And they don't like that. Yeah. And I appreciate that. You know, that's what I want. Yeah. But I mean, even the I don't know if it was the same the Lee play that was doing the solo stuff too. I probably was, but like that way of like even we heard on like the Ravel, the way the trumpets are playing, you know, you might say, okay, well, that's from the late 20s.
00:32:55:01 - 00:33:15:08
Unknown
That would be appropriate, like very classical style, but some sort of jazz type of, idiomatic stuff. But I always think about, like the late 20s. Think about like what? Louis Armstrong like he was kind of inventing the jazz. So it was still super early. I mean, yes, there was like blues. Bessie Smith, those recordings from around that time, like the way you would bend stuff and everything.
00:33:15:08 - 00:33:38:16
Unknown
And you definitely heard it, in that recording. Brilliant. Brilliantly. Let's go to something we've been hinting at here this whole time, and that's George Gershwin and Rhapsody in Blue, which I think is probably, if you were to say, what's a jazzy classical piece or a classical jazzy piece? Yeah. 85% of Americans would buy George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue.
00:33:38:16 - 00:33:58:04
Unknown
So we have a couple of different versions here. And the first one is the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Leonard Bernstein. It's basically the New York Philharmonic. Yeah. This is do you know what year this is from? I'm trying to find the year on this one. Rhapsody in. I don't this is early, right. I think it might be.
00:33:58:04 - 00:34:26:07
Unknown
This is, Rhapsody Blue conducted by Bernstein and played by Bernstein, too. He's playing the piano part. Oh, is it? So let's try again. Okay. One more time. Sorry, I shouldn't I didn't mean to break in there. That's good.
00:34:26:09 - 00:34:48:18
Unknown
Yeah. Piano and conductor. That's a heavy lift. That's bad. Bernstein, right. You probably contracted the show also. And, wrote the light note. The liner notes hosted the party afterwards. Yeah, yeah.
00:34:48:20 - 00:35:35:22
Unknown
I think a whole generation, two generations of clarinet players have learned how to play this off. This version. I like the fact that you can. Everything. Yeah, well. Well, sorry. I'll wait. We talk about music all the time. Yeah. There were no for that here. Well, good. I'll just wait till the the big, United Airlines.
00:35:36:00 - 00:35:59:02
Unknown
So I find this so interesting listening to this recording. I haven't heard this recording a really long time. And it is sort of the recording, like the standard recording that you learn this piece off of. It's Bernstein, it's the basically the New York Philharmonic, you know, feels like it couldn't get any more authentic. But I when I actually recorded this piece, with, Martin James Bartlett.
00:35:59:02 - 00:36:21:02
Unknown
And in preparing for it, I went and listened to the original recording of Gershwin playing this with the Paul Whiteman band. Yeah. And it was, I should say, it was a revelation. Would not be a strong enough word. Like, first of all, it's like five times faster, right? And the clarinetist completely plays it totally differently from what we quote unquote understand of this piece.
00:36:21:04 - 00:36:45:23
Unknown
And I've talked with multiple clarinetist about it, and they say they would actually to play it like that, they would have to completely change their whole technical approach to the instrument. Because it's just so worlds apart from what clarinetist are trying to do nowadays. Yeah. And so on that recording, we tried a couple of places to, to kind of kick the tempo close to where the Paul Whiteman band plays it, with Gershwin as the pianist.
00:36:46:00 - 00:37:02:00
Unknown
Yeah. And the other thing that I find so interesting is that in Rhapsody in Blue, you have these huge cadenzas for the piano, where they're just playing alone for 2 or 3 minutes at a time. And, I mean, Bernstein himself called this piece, like kind of a weird pastiche, like orchestra plays and the soloist plays and the orchestra plays.
00:37:02:00 - 00:37:29:03
Unknown
And it was Gershwin's first piece that he ever wrote for orchestra. And in the original, the premiere performance with orchestra. Gershwin hadn't written out any of the cadenzas, so he improvised them, and then wrote down the improvizations. And now 99% of classical musicians play the Improvizations as if they are, you know, a Beethoven piano tonight, right? And, there's a few pianists who now, do their own thing.
00:37:29:03 - 00:37:47:22
Unknown
Aaron Deal is one of them. He's amazing. Makoto Zona also improvises his own cadenzas. Yeah, but they always kind of. They what both of them do is they kind of go in and out of the original Gershwin and, which I've really I've done it with Aaron, and it's just so much fun to do it that way.
00:37:48:00 - 00:38:09:21
Unknown
But it's a piece that has so much improvization baked into it, and so often that improvization is ignored by classical musicians. So it's, it's fun to talk about it. I pulled up here the version with Gershwin playing with Paul Whiteman's. Yeah, and let's hear a little bit of that from the beginning.
00:38:09:23 - 00:38:19:15
Unknown
My.
00:38:19:17 - 00:38:29:06
Unknown
Other.
00:38:29:08 - 00:38:41:04
Unknown
And I'm. This is my favorite part. And the last there.
00:38:41:06 - 00:38:51:21
Unknown
Was much more like silent film score style, you know?
00:38:51:23 - 00:39:07:22
Unknown
It's a whole other animal. It's so much lighter. Yeah, exactly. And Gershwin is, like, slightly swinging it to you.
00:39:08:00 - 00:39:28:12
Unknown
It's a totally different piece. It doesn't have all of that bombast and and and, over the top feeling that the orchestral version does. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. You know what's interesting? I think as as iconic as this pieces and as influential as it is, and maybe more so than anything else to bridge, especially early on, classical and jazz.
00:39:28:14 - 00:39:52:06
Unknown
I think what ended up happening, like if you look at sort of how jazz unfolded after the 30s and 40s, you know, bebop and then, post-bop and whatever else we're going to say. Like, I think Gershwin's mark as a writer of songs that were adapted by jazz musicians later on absolutely became kind of his biggest influence, strictly on the jazz.
00:39:52:09 - 00:40:08:00
Unknown
I think within the classical world, it's always like he's one of the authentic jazz composers that can fit into the classical world and put these influences on in a way that was certainly different than Ravel. And, you know, where it was more like just a little peek around and they're already doing some of the harmonic stuff, or Stravinsky who.
00:40:08:06 - 00:40:27:23
Unknown
Yeah. You know, we should definitely talk about him super influenced musically. And but you're right, he's he's probably more influential on the 32 bar Ada form than he is on anything else. And one in particular, I got rhythm, right. Exactly like he wrote the blueprint for what would become bebop changes, essentially. And and he was very not a he was not a bebop player, a composer.
00:40:28:04 - 00:40:48:10
Unknown
But yeah, his composition became the the framework for that. Yeah. Really interesting. Yeah. Okay, let's move back over to the jazz side a little bit. That was fascinating to hear. Gershwin with Paul Whiteman band do that. Let's let's move on to a 1959 classic. We're going to skip ahead a little bit. And this is the Dave Brubeck Quartet.
00:40:48:15 - 00:41:18:11
Unknown
And this is definitely 59 or 6059. Okay. Let's talk about that later. This is definitely pulling jazz musicians Dave Brubeck, Paul Desmond, and that incredible band pulling from, classical tradition. And this is Blue Rondo, the Turk from Time Out.
00:41:18:12 - 00:41:35:02
Unknown
To.
00:41:35:04 - 00:41:58:19
Unknown
The. I mean, we were talking about Bartok earlier and, like, so obviously just a nod. Yeah, to that influence and how fashionable it was during this period. You know, but also the way that they play is how I always dream. Classical musicians can play not in the sense of improvization, but in the sense of horizontal versus vertical. Yeah.
00:41:58:21 - 00:42:14:17
Unknown
You hear like these, these like that. I thought, I thought at at that, I thought they, they don't have this kind of vertical bar line on each. You feel like this incredible momentum through them through each measure. And that's that's so great. Yeah.
00:42:14:18 - 00:42:33:16
Unknown
Yeah. There's definitely like a groove element to that, that percussion going on. And when they actually if you keep playing it until like when they go to the yeah yeah it's it's like immediately goes to a different groove.
00:42:33:18 - 00:42:36:11
Unknown
And.
00:42:36:13 - 00:42:55:19
Unknown
Because this is all written out like there's I don't think there's been one outside of the drums. Maybe one note of Improvization yet. Okay. But I bet the drummer does very similar things to the gig, you know what I mean? But he keeps it in the pocket. But once he goes to the solo section, it's like immediate improv, but it's at a totally different groove.
00:42:59:11 - 00:43:10:15
Unknown
It's just like and this is just blues with that is jumping back and forth and back on the.
00:43:10:17 - 00:43:31:09
Unknown
I believe this was our desert island track off of this. Yeah. This was a super influential record. Okay. So this record I know from my dad who's a classical musician, this was like a record when it came out that a lot of classical musicians were like, oh, I like that kind of jazz. Like, this was a real I mean, it was a super popular record.
00:43:31:09 - 00:43:58:13
Unknown
This was like a Billboard pop chart. That was a very unusual for a jazz record. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. All right. I'm I'm really struck by, like, just that rhythmic groove that is so. Yeah, it's so inevitable. And it just keeps on going. And then and then these rapid changes and that kind of, something that I've been playing with some really great jazz musicians.
00:43:58:13 - 00:44:23:14
Unknown
I've been lucky enough to have worked with Wayne Shorter and Chick Corea and the the sense of looseness and total precision is remarkable, because often I find with classical musicians we have to choose and and those two certainly were not choosing and they had both simultaneously. Yeah. I you know, I think that there's Chick Corea is a great example.
00:44:23:14 - 00:44:50:08
Unknown
And what I was saying is he's very similar in his background and his age and everything to Herbie Hancock in terms of like their exposure to classical music. And I mean, Chick Corea recorded, I mean, Herbie recorded some Chick Corea recorded a lot, you know, and wrote what are basically classical pieces totally written out. But I think that they were able to bring that the thing that some less nuanced jazz players, they might have a strong groove and as you say, sense of inevitability in terms of where things are going.
00:44:50:10 - 00:45:10:02
Unknown
But they do struggle. We do struggle sometimes when it's loose. And like every time I remember when I first started working with orchestras and doing stuff that was sort of jazz, pop types of stuff. And I mean, I knew this from playing classical music earlier, but all of a sudden you get the jazz thing when the conductor's like, and then the notes coming and there's this beautiful blend and we're like, where's the beat?
00:45:10:02 - 00:45:30:05
Unknown
You know? But there's but there's a beauty in that for a certain style of doing things. And when you can match that with a drummer that's sitting there with the brushes and the strings, because if the whole string section and when I first started writing, I had to understand that if they all coming together on a ballad exactly the same place as the bass and the piano, it sounds wack.
00:45:30:05 - 00:45:47:00
Unknown
It sounds like, you know, it's too vertical, like so to give it that or to give it that, that that flow to it, you know, is a real art. Folks like Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, for sure. Like they really understood both worlds. And in a way that was not like this is here and this is here.
00:45:47:00 - 00:46:08:11
Unknown
It was like, no, this is music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Josh, as a as a conductor, do you recognize the fear in the rhythm sections? Eyes of the jazz is it seems like I'm going to do this because it can vary. We may we could talk about this now because it could be very, very intimidating for us. If any jazz musician has to go play with orchestra, which we we often get the chance to do.
00:46:08:11 - 00:46:32:12
Unknown
And it's it's often a real treat, but it is very intimidating to step on that stage. Well, so I think the intimidation goes both ways, and it's silly because we're all just there playing music together. But I think I had one experience with, with it wasn't strictly jazz, it was, Ray Lema, who is more in like the world music and, realm.
00:46:32:13 - 00:46:56:06
Unknown
And he was playing with a German orchestra, and this was it was like quite a culture clash. I mean, everybody was everybody was trying a little too hard to make it work. I think that was kind of that ended up being the problem. And these I vividly remember one of the player, I think he might have been the bass player sitting with these two flute players, trying to teach these two players the rhythms, and they were all so desperate to just get it right.
00:46:56:06 - 00:47:16:14
Unknown
And, and finally it was getting like kind of tense because I was, I basically I just kept saying, follow the drummer, follow the drummer, and the drummer would try to follow me, and it was just like everybody was at cross-purposes. And finally, Ray, who I think is who was very experienced, he just got up and he was like, guys, just just keep it rolling.
00:47:16:16 - 00:47:40:19
Unknown
Just just work together. Just keep it rolling. Work together. It'll be fine. Yeah. And somehow, like, his top being totally relaxed just got everybody to calm down. And it just kind of clicked. And I find as a conductor who I don't I haven't done it a lot. But as a conductor with when I'm working with jazz musicians, especially like the rhythm section specifically.
00:47:40:21 - 00:48:02:06
Unknown
Yeah, I find I have to get them to trust me that I'm going to follow that man, that they're kind of the boss. Yeah. And that I'm going to be always. I'm not leading them. They're leading me. That's often the challenge. Yeah, yeah. It can be very challenging if a conductor doesn't understand that. Yeah. Because the rhythm section can just go and I gotta take it no matter what.
00:48:02:09 - 00:48:21:20
Unknown
Yeah, exactly. And and I think for conductors, you know, we always want to be involved and like control things and actually working with a rhythm section is I mean and it's not just in jazz music. It's also like when I do West Side Story, for example, Symphonic Dances from West Side Story. I always say like from ten minutes into the first rehearsal.
00:48:21:20 - 00:48:39:16
Unknown
I say in this passage, I am not the boss, the drummer is the boss. Like this is this is what has to lead, or else it's just especially with something like this, which is not. Yeah, doesn't have a fixed fixed points. Right? Yeah. I can be the most precise conductor on the planet and everybody's still going to listen to the drummer.
00:48:39:16 - 00:49:01:03
Unknown
So I'm not. Yeah. With them then it's just not going to work. Yeah. It's really going to be hard on everybody if you don't give the drummer that that power. It's a great point. Yeah. And I find all different types of musicians instinctively listen to and feel that if it's a good drummer, you know, like so, regardless of what they can, I've been in a lot of different situations where, you know, conductors were not as, insightful as you are.
00:49:01:03 - 00:49:14:08
Unknown
Josh, in terms of realizing that. And they're like, I'm not in control. I'm like, if people are going to go with like, you know what I mean? It's like, that's the they're going to go with what they hear. Yeah. It's like a basketball team. The point guard is going to be dribbling the ball and the center is going to be going, you know, it's like drop the plays all you want.
00:49:14:08 - 00:49:34:09
Unknown
Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And I mean some of the most successful times I've had the, some of the times when I've conducted and been playing, it really helps because it keeps like there's very like I would all and this was usually stuff that I had the reins to. So I knew that this stuff I would only be conducting at the places where it was needed.
00:49:34:09 - 00:49:49:13
Unknown
The rest of the time the drums are leading is are conducting, you know, and like, you cut out the middleman a little bit, but you got to have like an orchestra that really, really gets it to be able to do that, I think, well, let's listen to, a band and a conductor and an artist that really get it.
00:49:49:14 - 00:50:13:17
Unknown
Well, we'll make this our last selection and please leave in the comments. All of the, atrocities that we left out. So let us know how we really what I'm adding. There's going to be lots of criticism if we mention them. Does that count? Yeah. Go write them off. Well, I'm just thinking one person, we would be derelict if we didn't mention is Wynton Marsalis in terms of especially over the last 25 years, as you know, bridging classical and jazz.
00:50:13:17 - 00:50:34:21
Unknown
His swing Symphony, the you know, he's written a bunch of pieces, one and Wynton is also amazing at teaching classical orchestras how to sound like a jazz band really fast. Absolutely. Has he had. I watched him work with the New York Phil. I mean, the New York Phil gets a lot of this anyway. But yeah, he had very practical, technical advice that was just like boom, boom, boom.
00:50:34:21 - 00:50:56:20
Unknown
And he transformed the orchestra within five minutes. Yeah. Absolutely amazing. What other ones? And I can mention one thing just from the classical side really quick, because we didn't get the chance to talk about it. There are some very wacky, quote unquote jazz, classical compositions by composers who I don't know if they had ever heard jazz before.
00:50:56:22 - 00:51:27:05
Unknown
For example, the Shostakovich Jazz suites are hysterical. Yeah. I don't know what. Jazz. Shostakovich. Yeah. We have a little cued up right here. Yeah. Okay. Swinging. Okay, okay. You know, if the Soviet Union. I don't know what jazz Shostakovich was encountered, but it might have got mislabeled. And there's another composer, Irwin Hoff, who is a wonderful composer, who wrote a, suite for chamber orchestra that has some, again, quote unquote, jazz.
00:51:27:05 - 00:51:44:04
Unknown
It also has like, quote unquote tango in it. And it's it's a lot of fun to listen to. There's a lot of that stuff going around, I think, on both sides of things. Yes. Also shout out to, the Claude Bolling Suites, I think. Yes. Reaches for it. Kind of doesn't quite get it in my opinion. Pieces are beloved.
00:51:44:05 - 00:52:14:02
Unknown
They are. We love it. We might love to play them, but. Yeah, I love to hear them. Yeah, yeah. But. And Stravinsky, I think Stravinsky a huge influence on jazz musicians. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I know he didn't I don't think he talked about a lot or I don't know, maybe you seen something, Joshua. But I mean, he was definitely obviously, you know, influenced by jazz and when, when he went to LA like you, I mean, I think he would refer more to the influence that folks had from him on, like, Hollywood film scoring and things like that.
00:52:14:04 - 00:52:34:19
Unknown
But in terms of like, rhythm, even getting into almost some early R&B, like R&B, rhythm and blues or whatever, that became rock and roll. You can definitely hear that in his compositions. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And Copeland, I mean, there's so many names for sure. And one more just shout out the French in general. Yeah. So, you know, Frank Satie.
00:52:34:20 - 00:52:53:21
Unknown
Yes, Ravel, all those folks making it happen and really kind of a huge harmonic and melodic inspiration for early jazz musicians and even into the stuff we've already heard in the 50s. But it would make sense because you had the, the earliest musicians outside of the US, they could actually play jazz. Well, I mean, very earliest were French.
00:52:53:21 - 00:53:13:23
Unknown
Yeah. Exactly. You know, Django Reinhardt, that whole 100% and jazz musicians traveling. I mean, Louis Harris on his first went in the 20s to France. You know, I go, well, let's let's end this. Thank you. Josh, this. You're a delightful, conversationalist for this. We love to have you back on anything you want to talk about, but love.
00:53:13:23 - 00:53:40:01
Unknown
Sure. Let's end with maybe talking about the incredible, collaboration between Miles Davis and Gil Evans and specifically sketches of Spain. By what? Quinn. Rodrigo. This is the famous Adagio from the. I'm not even going to go. You pronounce it? Oh, Joshua. Joshua, I haven't actually, I don't know. I mean, I'm concierto that I'm blessed. Oh that's right, I'm not going to tell.
00:53:40:03 - 00:53:52:02
Unknown
I don't know which one I'm with.
00:53:52:04 - 00:54:00:02
Unknown
You.
00:54:00:04 - 00:54:25:04
Unknown
This is special for me to hear too, because I was going to perform Chick Corea, his version of this Spain, before he died. And I never got a chance to deal with that on, like. Every la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la.
00:54:25:06 - 00:54:41:03
Unknown
Oh.
00:54:41:05 - 00:54:56:19
Unknown
Very.
00:54:56:21 - 00:55:34:18
Unknown
Yeah. And this was really coming out of, you know, Miles's earlier involvement and. And Gil Evans, of course, with that birth of the cool stuff, the third stream, like that whole, scene in New York. Whose was it at Evans apartment? One of their apart. Gil Evans apart? Yeah. Oh, I'm 54th Street. Oh, what? Like that was a very heavily influenced classical group of, you know, and Miles, you know, I know he wasn't at Juilliard for long, but I think he kind of fit in with that, too, just in terms of his interest in a different sound, you know, and and really gravitating all through his career, but particularly in this period.
00:55:34:19 - 00:56:02:20
Unknown
Here's a version that you put on the playlist. Same movement, same piece performed by, Paco. You. Yeah, yeah. This is the original, Oh, this is the original. The original? Yeah. I.
00:56:02:22 - 00:56:31:08
Unknown
Hi. But amazing to hear from a guitar key to a trumpet key. That's right. Well, but that's the thing is, is, I think Miles was so, throughout his entire career, you know, and talked about his his influences with classical music. Yeah. Really openly. It's in everything. It's in even, things that you might not think of directly, but things like.
00:56:31:10 - 00:56:55:01
Unknown
So what? Yeah. You know, we were talking about. Oh, yeah, there's French and. Yeah. So what? Yeah, it's actually what him and his pianist on these albums, Bill Evans with like, bond over. Yeah. Are those French harmonies. There was this one last quote from Duke Ellington that I had brought with me, because I thought it was so appropriate for this.
00:56:55:01 - 00:57:14:09
Unknown
He wrote, or said, I'm not sure. He said, I'm not a jazz composer and I'm not a classical composer either. I am a composer of contemporary music. And I think that, I mean, certainly in terms of 20th century classical music, I think that sums it up. I mean, they're one of the greatest books about music ever written is The Rest Is Noise by Alex Ross.
00:57:14:11 - 00:57:39:21
Unknown
And he just talks about this just like hothouse of influences from classical music expanding all over the world, and into so many different corners and taking from so many different influences like jazz. And so it's it is just contemporary music. And the divide between jazz and classical music is is there. It exists, obviously it's different kinds of music, but it's still music in the end.
00:57:39:23 - 00:57:55:13
Unknown
Yeah, I think some of the I was just thinking of, pianos that I've just been listening to a lot recently. It was it Igor Levit? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I know he's been, actually, my son was at a recital he did earlier, earlier this year at Carnegie, and he said he did, as an encore.
00:57:55:13 - 00:58:12:02
Unknown
He did several encores, and one was a Bill Evans composition. Oh, major. And it's a little bit of improv. He said he felt like he was improvising a little bit over it. So, I mean, I think that that, you know, that's always been there, and I think with this generation now is going to continue to be beautiful cross pollination.
00:58:12:07 - 00:58:29:02
Unknown
Which brings us to something that I know you're hoping we're going to avoid. Can we talk about can we have some kind of a snob off before we butter? Okay. Let's listen to okay. So, Josh, we have a thing called this anemometer. We used to call it the snob meter. And my dad, Bill Martin, actually, he said, you know what?
00:58:29:02 - 00:58:44:16
Unknown
You should call it? The snap barometer. Make it class it up a little bit, you know. Now, caveat we don't know what it actually means. Well, no, you I never know. You started out doing it but you've been pulled down. And so we've always said that the that a one is something that is very accessible and not very snobby.
00:58:44:16 - 00:59:11:05
Unknown
I've used the avatar of my wonderful, sweet Aunt Linda, who whose favorite band is or favorite album would be probably like some Methodist hymns, you know, just something very you know, easy to swallow, not challenging. And then our other avatar, I don't know if you know, the great jazz pianist from, the bad plus Ethan Iverson. He's got an incredible point of view, amazing taste in music, the ultimate snob, and lovingly referred to him as the ultimate jazz.
00:59:11:05 - 00:59:30:06
Unknown
Not so. That's a ten, right? Yeah. And so anywhere in between. So what are we what are we rating? So let's just say maybe John first you could give us just a well we'll put you on the spot like a who's a classical Aunt Linda and then Ethan Iverson, like who would be one in the classical world. And you can go back to like because I mean, I probably should.
00:59:30:07 - 00:59:51:07
Unknown
Leonard Bernstein pops the mind is more like a one of the classical world. But whoever you are, you know. Well, I mean, I think maybe I definitely should stick with people who are no longer alive, or else I will get into big trouble. We didn't. We didn't. Both of us are alive. Yeah. I think Bernstein is a really good example of both, actually.
00:59:51:10 - 01:00:13:10
Unknown
I think if you if you go like his young people's concerts, like, these were the concerts that opened up classical music to a generation of listeners. And my mom talks endlessly about how much she waited for them every Saturday and all this. But then you watch his if you watch them now, they he includes he's like, and this is in out a form which I don't need to explain to you because of course, you know, it's an audio format.
01:00:13:12 - 01:00:29:13
Unknown
And then he modulates to A-flat major in the second theme. And you know what? Modulation is, right? And all the kids just kind of stare, glassy eyed. He's like, oh, you. Yeah, you know exactly what that means. And it's so sophisticated and it's on such a high. And he just assumes these kids are going to come with him.
01:00:29:13 - 01:00:47:04
Unknown
And they do. And I and I've learned so much from watching them, not just from his incredible charisma and his personality. And I've learned a lot, you know, his hit Leonard Bernstein is the reason I have a classical music podcast, because I thought if he was alive, he would have a podcast. Oh, totally. I would be amazing. Yeah.
01:00:47:06 - 01:01:13:04
Unknown
And so his way of not quote unquote, dumbing down a thing, but also talking about it in a way that made you really excited to learn about expositions and developments and recapitulation and modulations and all this. That to me is like you, don't you? You can be a snob without anybody knowing you're a snob, you know, you can know all this stuff and have all the background and also make it seem like the easiest thing in the world to understand.
01:01:13:04 - 01:01:30:08
Unknown
And so for me, it's like, I mean, it's the talk about not a stuffy thing, but like, I always compare it to that great, Pixar movie Ratatouille. You know, anyone can cook. Yeah. I'm always like, anyone can love classical music. You just have to learn how to embrace it. Like any, like, any great thing. It takes some time.
01:01:30:08 - 01:01:48:01
Unknown
But for me, like Bernstein, is the ultimate at that. I don't know if we've clarified to stop a meter and add another layer to it. Actually, no. We were just talking about about win. Marsalis and I feel like if there's a version of that on our side of things, someone who's a great communicator. Yeah, he's mad at me, though he is.
01:01:48:03 - 01:02:05:04
Unknown
He can be snarky, be very smart, but he can also do a kid's concert and like, make it entertaining. And then he can go, you know, release Black Codes in the underground. It's like really playing some stuff kind of thing, like a little bit of both. There they go. Well, everybody go check out sticky notes. Go subscribe the sticky notes.
01:02:05:04 - 01:02:53:12
Unknown
It's a wonderful podcast. And Josh, you're a wonderful sport for being here and listening to this music. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks for, generously sharing your time with us today. Yeah, man. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's such a great time. That's right. We'll do it again. Till next time, you'll hear it. That's it.
01:02:53:14 - 01:03:25:08
Unknown
Oh!
01:03:25:10 - 01:03:33:20
Unknown
Oh. Oh.
01:03:33:22 - 01:04:19:22
Unknown
Oh.
01:04:20:00 - 01:04:31:12
Unknown
Oh. Oh.
01:04:31:14 - 01:04:41:03
Unknown
Oh. Oh.
01:04:41:05 - 01:04:52:05
Unknown
Oh.
01:04:52:07 - 01:05:00:01
Unknown
Oh oh. Oh.
01:05:00:03 - 01:05:08:22
Unknown
Oh.
01:05:09:00 - 01:06:37:23
Unknown
Oh.
01:06:38:00 - 01:08:00:01
Unknown
Oh.
01:08:00:03 - 01:08:30:00
Unknown
000.
